medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture [log in to unmask] picqued this knit: [foolishly quoting me:] >> yes, though it was, far as i know, never one of *the* "Royal Abbeys," which were a group of "Royal Domain" collegiate churches very directly under the control of the king, not infrequently with a king's younger son (or brother) installed as Abbot (i'm thinking esp. of Louis VI's son, Henry "de France" who was "Abbot of the royal monasteries" [so he styles himself in several charters] before he Got Religion in the 1140s and converted to Cistercianism and ended up as Archbishop of Sens, then Reims). >Well, Christopher, if an abbey church can't be a cathedral but, in our own day, as we who have been paying attention to this string have discovered, the *abbey* church of St. Denis is, indeed, a cathedral. the *real* question for idly enquiring minds is whether or not it is still a "basilica," post 1966. in which case it is all three, at the same time, simultaneously, together. except, of course, that it is no longer an abbey church. but, since it was originally *built* as an abbey church, i'd say that it remains so, _in perpetuum, saeculae saeculorum_, and still deserves that designation (at least Art Hysterically speaking). >(except, of course, in England), well, goodlord, *any*thing can go on in England. we start using *that* as a criteria for anything, we'd be in very heavy do-do indeed, pretty quick. >how can a "royal abbey" be a "collegiate church". 'cause, in My Universe, almost all collegial [-ates] churches are abbeys (though not all abbeys are collegials). i get this kinky idea from the documents/charters from these institutions (e.g., St. John's of Chartres) themselves, wherein they almost always use (hope i'm remembering rightly) the term _monaster*_ to refer to themselves, *and* they are almost always headed up by an *Abbot* (except in England, where...). specifically, in the case in question above, Henry D. France actually styles himself in one or more of his charters "Abbot of the Royal Monasteries," indicating that he held this office in multiple institutions, seems to me. the King's "rights" over these institutions extended well beyond the nomination of the Abbot --the prebends of the canons were also in his gift. perhaps the most notable example of this is to be found in the career of Stephen of Garland, who was Louis VI's chancellor (on and off) at the same time that he was an Archdeacon of the cathedral of Paris, a canon of that of Orleans, canon of the collegials of Etampes and, i believe, St. Aignan of Orleans, and Dog Nose what else. *all* of which offices were, i assume, more or less within the gift of the king. going the other way, when the "reforming" collegial monastery of St. Victor was founded outside the walls of Paris, the King granted it either a prebend or the annates of the prebends (i can't recall which) in each and every one of those "Royal Monasteries." that gift was, presumably, his to give. there is another sort of "Royal Abbey," of course, which term applies, i *believe* to the simple fact that the king had *some* sort of "proprietary" rights over the place (though whether or not he could exercise them or not in practice is another question), such as a veto over the choice of Abbot. there were quite a few places, far-flung all around [present day] France, which, from time to time, style themselves as a "royal monastery," most often when the King happened to be passing through town and was hit up by the institution for some kind of Royal charter --a general confirmation of the abbey's property, for example. in such circumstances both parties got something for the effort: --Rex himself got to show the flag and to assert --however thinly-- some vague "rights" which he may have had (or, wished he had) over the place (at the least the right to "protect" it, i.e., to Render Justice over disputes involving the place in his own court); --and the abbey got a piece of sheepskin --all covered with fancy (and, partially, nearly illegible) magic writing on it, decked out with a really spiffy, very offical-looking (and *BIG*) seal-- spelling out and "confirming" in some detail all the abbey's property and, by implication, assuring that the Royal Muscle might be call-uponable to enforce the abbey's rights to that property. memory fades [duh], but i'd say that a look through 11-12th cc. royal charters issued for such purposes would show that in quite a few of them the king *claims* such a desination (and, presumably, the institution aquiesed in this vague assertion of Royal influence, if for no other reason than to be able to lay hands on the charter being issued, which *might* prove to be of use, sometime in future). a useful way of thinking about this (i think) is to give up the thoroughly modern idea of thinking of the "Royal Domain" as some kind of precisely delimited geographical area and adopt the fertile idea of the very interesting american scholar, William Mendel Newman, who, in 1937, published what i believe was a ground-breaking book, _Le domaine royal sous les premiers Capétiens (987-1180)_ (Paris, 1937). Newman's bright idea (which might not have been entirely original, perhaps going back to similar ones held forth and a method used by Fustel de Coulanges) was that the R.D. shouldn't be defined geographically, but rather more as a function of the *rights* which the (any given) king was able to exercise (at any given time), no matter where, geographically, those rights might be exercisable. now, it just so happens that *most* of the rights exercised by the early Capetians, if plotted on a map, fall within the "Ile-de-France" ("Royal Domain" as the term is commonly understood), i.e., the more or less hour-glass shaped region extending roughly from, say, Bourges in the South, through Orleans, Etampes and Paris to, say, Laon. but, beyond this, the King "held" --or at least could, from time to time *claim* to hold-- all sorts of "rights," all over everywhere. thus, in the early 11th c., when the Viscount of Chateaudun is pillaging the lands of poor St. Mary of Chartres in the Beauce and has built "diabolici instinctus machinas" (i.e., a "castle") at Gallardon as a stategic operational base to facilitate such joyful looting activity, Bishop Fulbert writes (in addition to Odo, Count of Blois/Chartres) to King Robert (and Queen Constance), asking --and cajoling, with threats of a "work stoppage" at the cathedral and an appeal to the Emperor-- for help dealing with the malefactor. (http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/lords/introgal.html#_ftn10 --click on the note to get back to the body of the text.) in his letters the bishop notes that the king had recently destroyed just such a "castle" at Gallardon (which lies just a few miles NE of Chartres). now, the question is, was Gallardon --physically clearly located in the very heart of the County of Chartres-- part of the "Royal Domain" (at this time) or not? answer: it certainly was, *if* the King could muster some of his Good Ole Boys to ride down (or over) there and, by the Rights invested in his strong right arm, impose his will upon the place. likewise, when the King exercised considerable clout in the election of one of Fulbert's immediate sucessors (i forget which one, but the loosing candidate, Albert, got to be Abbot of Marmoutier as a consolation prize --which office itself might have been in the gift of the Count of Blois/Chartres), **for that period of time** the See of Chartres might be considered, in part at least, to have been in the "Royal Domain." in this peirod --and, to a certian extent, well beyond it, perhaps into our own-- all Politics was Local, and one's "rights" somewhere depended to a very large extent (if not entirely) upon one's ability to actually *exercise* Power at a given place and time. >Shouldn't it be "royal foundation" rather than "royal abbey"? most (perhaps/probably all) of the "Royal Monasteries" (i.e., the ones where the king exercised more or less direct control over the choice of Abbot/canons, etc.) were, indeed Royal Foundations. (St. Mary's of Etampes, the only one i actually know a bit about, certainly was, being founded by Robert the Pious --or his wife, i forget which.) so you can use that term, if you wish, if it's applicable to a particular place. i.e., if it is indeed a "royal foundation," the you may call it that, by my grace. go crazy and wild, what ever turns you on. christopher ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html