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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > If I remember well, the connection of the chrisma of > Clovis with the > consecration of a French king dates from a report of > Hincmar about the > crowning ceremony of Charles "le Chauve" (in about > 870?) Yes, that's my recollection also. But there had to be some object that functioned as the ampoule and that object, it is suggested by Patrick Demouy I think, was the vial for embalming oil found in Remi's tomb. If that's the case, what happened to the ampoule between the discovery of it and the second mention that you mention? I assume the monks of Saint-Remi would not allow the ampoule to travel and that any king not anointed at Reims would have been anointed with something else. > In 1108, when Louis VI was consecrated in Orleans, > Ivo of Chartres > argued about the legitimation of this act WITHOUT > mentioning the > legendary baptismal oil and the claims of Reims to > use it. He should > have done so, if the oil was in use then. Could it not have just been taken for granted that the ampoule cum Reims-as-venue was a package deal and one could not exist without the other? > > The Sainte-Ampoule is re-mentioned, for the very > first time, in the > chronicle of Morigny, on the occasion of the > crowning and *embalming* (anointing?) > ceremony of Louis VII im Reims in 1131(by pope > Innocent II). Pardon the giggles, Werner, but it sounds as though Louis was crowned and embalmed at the same time ;-) MG As the cult > of Hincmar was renewed at the same time (the "new" > tomb of Hincmar in > Saint-Remi was ready in about 1130), one should > assume that the vial was > recognized shortely before. But it's unknown if the > vial was in use in > 1129, when Philip was consecrated. > > Best wishes > > Werner Robl > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag > von Marjorie Greene > Gesendet: Freitag, 18. Januar 2002 00:06 > An: [log in to unmask] > Betreff: Re: [M-R] AW: [M-R] Saint-Denis & Louis VI > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval > religion and > culture > > After the > > rediscovery of the > > Sainte-Ampoule (the heavenly oil of Clovis) in the > > Reims cathedral > > (after 1108? surely before 1130), > > The Sainte Ampoule was probably a vial containing > dried embalming oil found in the tomb of Remi at the > time of the translation of his relics from a chapel > (Saint-Christophe, I > think) near the present basilica of Saint-Remi at > the end of the 9th > century. Hincmar de Reims is "credited" with > inventing the story of the > dove, etc. to shore up the legitimacy of the > Carolingians. > > Reims was > > incontestably the one and > > only crowning place in France. Louis' son Philip > was > > crowned in Reims, > > in 1129. BTW: Louis VI was very familiar with > > Rainald, archbishop of > > Reims, too. > > > > And what's about Louis VII? > > > > He died in Paris after having been paralysed by > > stroke for a year. But > > he was a clever guy and avoided the embarassing > > aristocratic crypts: His > > body passed Saint-Denis nearby, evaded his > brothers > > (Henry) former > > "royal" abbeys - approx. half a dozen - and his > > mother's convent in > > Montmartre and - preferred a "young and lively" > > Cistercian abbey "en > > plein air" as burial place. What an posthumous > anti-aristocratic irony > > and likeable gesture! > > > > Kind regards > > > > Werner Robl > > > > > ********************************************************************** > > To join the list, send the message: join > > medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] > > To send a message to the list, address it to: > > [log in to unmask] To leave the > list, send the message: > > leave medieval-religion > > to: [log in to unmask] > > In order to report problems or to contact the > list's > > owners, write to: > > [log in to unmask] > > For further information, visit our web site: > > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join > medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, > send the message: > leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's > owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join > medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave > medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's > owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html