medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture A bit of the answer to my own question: there is a chapter on Saint Denis in Colette Beaune, The birth of an ideology: myths and symbols of nation in late-medieval France (U of California Press, 1991). Beame (p. 17) mentions prayers offered to Martin, Denis & Remigius as patrons of the Frankish 7 then the French kingdom. Louis IX's cult was promoted by his descendants. Tom izbicki At 09:01 AM 11/16/2001 -0700, you wrote: >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > >Tom Izbicki <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > >How are these things determined? > >good question. > > >Long-standing cult? > >certainly necessary, but hardly sufficient. > > >Some decree, > >issued by whom? > >when? > > >...lists neither Dennis or Martin. Instead she lists Joan of Arc, > Therese of >Lisieux & Our Lady of the Assumption. Allowing for change over time, do some >patrons fall out of favor or get set aside? > >i don't believe that i've ever heard of Martin as "patron" of France --which >doesn't mean anything, obviously. > >surely the whole question of a patron of "France" must be a very late notion, >indeed, since the entity in question is just that. > >comment a dire "patron of France" in medieval latin? > >Joan, Threse, etc. all smack of 19th c. investments, to me (corrections >welcome). > >perhaps recent scholarship has modified/revised the view that Denis owed his >special place to his association/exploitation by the monarchy --from the time >of the Merovingians, but esp. under the Carolingians and, most especially, by >the middle Capetians, the great boost being given by Suger (how does he speak >of Denis viz-a-viz the "realm," specifically? i can't recall). > >i'd be surprised to find that the concept was explicitly stated --in any >country-- in the early or high middle ages, and belongs instead to early >modern times, at the earliest. which is not to say that specific monarchs in >specific countries over time did not have and patronize (as it were) specific >saints and use/exploit their popularity and prestige to their own ends. >eventually, someone came up with the term "Patron of X." > >just idle thoughts, obviously. > > >i would be particularly interested in any examples concerning Sta. Barbara! > >well, that's easy: Santa Barbara is the Patron Saint of California. > >best from here, > >christopher > >********************************************************************** >To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >to: [log in to unmask] >To send a message to the list, address it to: >[log in to unmask] >To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >to: [log in to unmask] >In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >[log in to unmask] >For further information, visit our web site: >http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html Thomas M. Izbicki Collection Development Coordinator Eisenhower Library Johns Hopkins University 3400 N. Charles Street Baltimore, MD 21218 Telephone: 410-516-7173 Fax: 410-516-8399 ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html