There is one thing that really irritates me in Environmental discussions. It seems that there is always this ridiculous tendency to take the subject to the sphere of mysticism, cheap emotionalism and old cliches. This is one of the things that really ruined the Forum of NGO's during the "Earth Summit" in 1992 and has been creating a very bad image for serious environmentalists. Let's keep to the point please. As someone said before this is an industrial-ecology list. With all my respect, I think that those who want to discuss the relationship between environment and religion, new age stuff, the existence of flying saucers and so on and on, should create their own list. Get real! We are not in the 70s any more and repeating enlightened words that were copied from some book, does not make anyone as enlightened as the author's of the nice words. We need ideas that would bring concrete solutions for environmental and social problems (and fast), not middle-class bulshitism. Environmental problems are not simple problems that can be summarized in old fashion slogans. It is not longer a case of Reds against Blues. Apologies for being so straightforward. By the way, I am starting a research on solutions for the Environmental impacts caused by air traffic. (noise, energy waste, etc) I would be grateful if anyone could share some information with me. Thanks %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%