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EUROPEAN-SOCIOLOGIST  May 1999

EUROPEAN-SOCIOLOGIST May 1999

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Subject:

Re: Conference on NATO's Future ( or rather KILLING FOR NATO FUTURE )

From:

Ozbilgin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Ozbilgin <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 12 May 1999 00:02:57 +0100 (BST)

Content-Type:

text/PLAIN

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/PLAIN (176 lines)

The message below is another manifestation of racism and xenophobia
directed at Muslim, Bosnians and Turks alike. Highly selective and biased
historical accounts are used to promote racist ideologies. I am ashamed of
the way in which several participants express their racist and xenophobic
views in this platform of eauropean sociology. I initially wanted to
correct and explain several historical and political error in the message
below. However, as I read it through I realised that I am not to apologise
for someone else's errors of judgement and racist intentions.

Best regards,

Mustafa Ozbilgin 





On Wed, 12 May 1999, Nikos Gousgounis wrote:> 
> Dear Slobodanka
> 
> I read your comments on the Nato conference ( that is a ridiculus 
> case the same as the gala of Nato birthday). Do you really mean it when
> you say that Yugoslavs from the opposition are not invited ? In other words
> DO YOU STILL TRUST THESE BLOODY CRIMINALS and you want
> to participate in their conferences ? What is your hope for the future, 
> that once Milocevic will be off, the Serbian Nation will be salvated and 
> Mr Clinton will say SORRY ?
> 
> I am a Greek sociologist and I am really perplexed about the recent crisis.
> What is really happening in Beograd ? I have been in your city many times
> mostly in the decade 1970-80 and people looked happy and joyful. Then 
> came Milocevic and the Bosnia war. Then you say that the 3/4 of Belgradians
> formed the opposition every day in the roads. That was clear on TV but the 
> fact is that at the time Americans rather estimated Milocevic as a stability
> factor
> useful for signing the Daiton traity. Then all was reinversed upside down. M
> became
> the bad guy for Nato and bombings started. Then you don't know whom to blame 
> for that.
> 
> Well, my aspects are the following ( as a neighboring outsider)  :
> 
> 1/ It was a terrible mistake to trust Americans even 2 years ago while
> demonstrating
> in the streets against M with American and EU flags. These states are not to be
> trusted because they were opposant to Serbs not OUT OF THE SERBIAN 
> POLITICAL REGIME BUT BECAUSE THEY PREFERED TO ENFORCE
> CROACIANS AND MUSULMANS. 
> That was a German idea influencing strongly EU. The American innovation
> concerns 
> the influence on Muslims. The same is with Greece and Turkey for the last 25
> years. Both belong to Nato but US is favorable to Turks whatever the Greek 
> gorvement might be ( Dictature put by US in 1974 when Cyprus was massacred
> with 170.000 refugees) then Conservative goverments , then Socialists.
> 
> 2/ Must be some important minerals in Kosovo ( URANIUM) otherwise it's no
> explained why they bomb with such rage even villages killing Albanians too. 
> All they want is not to have important rulers in that region and the
> solution of 
> autonomy seemed good since an Albanian under their orders ( managed by paid 
> killers such as UCK) WILL MAKE THEIR EASY SERVANTS.
> 
> 3/ Draskovits and the rest of opposition may think that they are democratic and 
> all that, but under present circumstances all that is NAIVE because  the 
> important now is WHO CAN MANAGE HIS POWER BETTER AND 
> WHO KNOWS TO PLAY BETTER CHESS. The ideological questions are
> off the record when you get bombs over your heads. THERE IS NO HOPE THAT 
> EUROPEANS ( MOSTLY ENGLISH) AND AMERICANS WILL 
> SYMPATHISE BETTER SERBS after EXTERMINATING  MILOCEVITS.
> 
> YOU MUST BE BABY- NAIVE TO HOPE THAT. Milocevic was a good 
> pretext to create all this scenery, but their fault was that waited that all the
> opposant should rebel against M the second day of bombings. This did not 
> happen and you know the reasons beter than me. Please don;t say that you 
> wanted to scream VIVA NATO and official propaganda did not let you. 
> In the contrary there was a solidarity and this is the strong point of the
> Serbian
> people that makes the difference with other EU nations. That proves thast you
> have more common points with M than with NATO even this very moment.
> You may be internationalist in ideology but when the STRONG BOSS 
> DON'T LET YOU BE AS YOU WISH THEN YOU MUST PAY HIM
> WITH SCORN AND even HATE. What do you like from US ? Their freedom
> or the lies of its leaders ? They create news like films of Holywood. CNN IS A 
> SMALL HOLLYWOD.But life is not Titanic nor Disneyland . French sociologists
> ( Baudrillard ) had said in 1991 that probably the Gulf war was a video game
> and 
> nothing more. Bourdieu believes from early eighties that L'OPINION PUBLIQUE 
> N'EXISTE PAS. IT IS FABRICATED. So what do you want from US ? Money 
> from Wall street ? Are you jealous for their wealth ? But they spend these
> money 
> as idiots for expensive clothes , restos and psychanalysts. Serbian and
> Bosnian gypsies 
> are much more happier. KASTURICA WAS RIGHT WHEN LEAVING THE US
> AFTER TURNING HIS WORST FILM ARIZONA ..... But "Underground" is 
> YOUR CULTURE and you must be proud of that. 
> 
> 4/ In Greece simple people like Serbs as brave heroes with not having idea what 
> M is doing or did against Albanians. In my opinion, he killed 2000 Albanians
> totally. But Albanians killed 1000 Serbs too. What is that idiocy of ethnic
> cleansing
> compared with Rwanda or Sudan ? American satellites could view even a man 
> shaving himself , so why not showing this ethno cleansing in the CNN ? 
> 
> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT HAPPENED ?
> 
> ARE YOU SO INTERNATIONALIST THAT YOU NEED AMERICANS
> OR NATO TO HELP YOU TO GET RID OF M ?
> 
> If you are, you have better to migrate to the US or Canada, but not be
> anymore proud of speaking Sebian and listening Serb music. 
> 
> Maybe you have more common things with M than you name meaning freedom
> and you did never consider it. Think it again.
> 
> As for me I feel ashamed to belong in UN and having been paid for 
> some European research programmes against  social exclusion and xenophobia.
> EU is hypocrite especially when paying others for things it never believed.
> Maybe EU will be absorbed by the new NATO . Mr Blair is hardly working
> on this direction.
> 
> What makes a nation important is not to imitate MTV or American cultural
> rabbish ( in music, language, films, fashion, lifestyle  etc) but rather its 
> own way to the future and Serbia had proved in the near past that it had 
> its way. Yugoslavia also had its social and financial way of living in dignity
> and not as a slave of Russians or Americans. We, Greeks admired Yugoslavia 
> of being so independent and autonomous state even during the cold war.
> Now the prize was  to divide it in pieces ? If Croats never wanted to repeat
> the Tito experimentation of living in the same federation with poor Macedonians
> their praise will be to become the poor relatives of Austrians and German.
> Soon they will forget Croatianand will speak German. Do you envy them ?
> Where is their dignity ? Of course they are pro nationalist fascists but they
> are IDIOT FASCISTS THE SAME AS HUNGARIANS RUNNING AFTER
> THE STRONGS OF THE EART THE SAME AS MY DOG RUNNING AFTER
> ME EVEN IF I NEVER ENCOURAGE IT.  Albanians are even worst. 
> They are eternal beggars and stealers with no gratitude. Even gypsies steal
> with 
> style. Albanians no. When you pay an Albanian in Greece as illegal worker 
> he will come next day to steal YOU and not another who did not pay him.
> THEY ARE ETHNICALLY CRAZY. They became Muslim just not tobe 
> taxed by Turks and the half of them surveilled the other half as spies. 
> 
> But Serbs were never as that. You never run after Byzantines, or Turks 
> or Austrohungarian or German or Russian why to run after EU or US ?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for the lenght of my letter , anyway I am a stranger that maybe you
> cannot trust, I promise you not the consumer paradise and the Wall street 
> wealth but only sorrow and stress coming out of national dignity and bravery.
> I did not mention Ortodoxy and all that religious stuff since I don't believe 
> on that but sometimes people do when bombs are on their heads, but anyway...
> it disd not happen to us here, maybe it will be Greece's turn next year.
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN ONE IS BRAVE 
>       HE IS BRAVE FOR HIMSELF
>            AND NOT FOR ANY PARTICULAR LEADER
> 
> Socrates taught : KNOW YOURSELF AND BE THE LEADER OF  YOURSELF
> 
> Just remember that and if you wish you may respond to me.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Nikos Gousgounis
> Ph.D. Social Anthropologist and Sociologist of Sorbonne University.
> working in Athens.
> 
> 



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