Please find attached four malings on question put from URBANET list.
G.V
From: patsilarasvasilis
Subject: Re: Fwd: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
To: h7711var; URBANET
Cc:
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 09:08:41 CET
I do not intent to turn a discussion forum on urban problems to forum of
national dispute. I will make only a few last comments.
It behoves the Turkish elit to dispute known facts, they even try to
re-write history. For that reason I would like to remind the list that
Turks, originally a Moggolian tribe, apppered on the scene of history, a
little over one tousand years ago, thousands of years after Kurds, Greeks
and other Balkan races lived in the area. It is not accidental that modern
Turkey after subdueing local populations and systematically anihilating
ancient people, is trying to usurp their history. They try to present the
glorious history of Asia Minor as the history of Turkey, by presenting, in a
very skillfull way, the ancient Greek and Roman ruins on the Asia Minor
coast and hinterland as their own. They even say that the Troyan war has
been the first conflict between Greece and Turkey !! A historic event that
took place TWO THOUSAND years before Turks first came to the region, from
Moggolia.
As for the rest the comments, I leave them on the listers' judgment. When in
doubt one can visit the Balkan countries and Turkey and judge by himself.
Vasilis Patsilaras
From: cigdem nas
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
>
>I would like to raise some questions about what Vasilis Patsilaras
>wrote:
>1. How does he come to the conclusion that Yugoslavia achieved a
>'remarkable level of cohesiveness among its various racial and religious
>groups'despite 'all its shortcomings and lack of democracy'?
>2. Has he found a method of 'measuring' the density of national
>identities? Or maybe he has a detector which beeps when he comes across
>a national identity? Why is the national identity of the Bosnians
>written with a double exclamation mark (!!)? Which criteria does he use
>when he is 'measuring' the density of national identities? How would he
>choose to define the 'far more distinctive identity' of the Kurds?
>3. On a scale of 1 to 10, where would he place the 'Turkish ruling
>bladdy military regime' against the benevolent neighbor, advocator of
>all things humanitarian, principled and peace-loving NATO ally Greece?
>I have many more questions to ask. But I believe this is enough for the
>moment.
>Cigdem Nas
>
>
>
>
>----- signature block follows -----
>
>Gabor VARNAI
>PARDES Urban Policy Research and Consulting Office;
>Institute of Sociology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences
>Felsoerdosor 12.
>Budapest, Hungary
>H-1068
>tel/fax: +36-1-3515465
>e-mail: [log in to unmask]
>if your answer undelivered: [log in to unmask]
From: patsilarasvasilis
Subject: Re: Fwd: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
To: h7711var; URBANET
Cc:
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 08:51:54 CET
I gathered from your post that you excluded Greeks from the
"judeo-christian" tradition, to my surprise. May I remind you that Greeks
have been the founders of this tradition and they are still a big part of
it, for better or worst?
The seemingly bigger national hostility in the Balkans, compared to western
Europe, is mostly due to outside interference and particularly that from
Turkey, which culture-wise is not a Balkan country, and tries to impose
itself on the Balkans in order to assume the much desired European outlook.
Greeks, as other Balkans nations, have a country and a history to defend
(unfortunately by themselves) against a strong threat, so inevitably nation
becomes important.
Vasilis Patsilaras
From: Markus Mueller
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
>
>hej!
>
>i just wanted to talk about a little observation of mine: in the current
>"bosnia-kosovo-kurdistan" dispute it is not necessary to read the messages
>- the content is clear as soon as the nationality of the sender is
identified.
>greeks are against turcs and try to find reasons,
>turcs are against the reasons of the greeeks,
>and somehow both sides present their interpretations of the situation
>ex-yugoslavia that better fits their national interest.
>
>i thinkt that instead of exchanging national political stereotyps it would
>be more interesting to discuss the meaning of "politcs" and "nation" in the
>balkans and turkey.
>
>my hypothesis is (and it is neither new nor original), that in these
>countries "nation" is so important for both the construction of the
>individual identity and as a basis for the political discussions, that we
>as "judeo-christian" westerners can not follow the rationalizy behind it.
>whereas for "westernes" nation today is nothing but a mere framework for
>the development of self-identity with very little symbolic value, for the
>balkans/turcey "nation" is a essential brick in what means "self". whereas
>we are academics, music lovers, etc. AND Austrian/English/Dutch, they are
>Turc/Greek/ AND acadedmics, music-lovers etc.
>I used to travel through the balkans quite a time and found that it is
>impossible to discuss problems of nationality even with higher educated
>people - be it in croatia, bulgaria, macedonia (sorry - fyrom), greece or
>kosovo.
>
>I therefore propose that we discuss means to introduce a more modern and
>"western" approach nation in the balkans and south-east europe. I take the
>risk of being called eurocentristic and judeo-christian...., i know that
>western-european history is nationalistc, full of racism, irrational etc.
>
>still i claim that the western european meaning of "nation" is less violent
>and
>makes life easier than the balcan/turc interpretation.
>
>greetings,
>
>markus mueller
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>[log in to unmask]
>wielandgasse 19 - 8010 graz
>fone: +43/669/10060825 fone/fax: +43/316/816150
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
>
>----- signature block follows -----
>
>Gabor VARNAI
>PARDES Urban Policy Research and Consulting Office;
>Institute of Sociology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences
>Felsoerdosor 12.
>Budapest, Hungary
>H-1068
>tel/fax: +36-1-3515465
>e-mail: [log in to unmask]
>if your answer undelivered: [log in to unmask]
From: ryan goodness
Subject: Re: Fwd: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc:
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 04:53:12 CET
I wish you guys would take your school yard fight somewhere else. There is
such a thing as appropriateness, and both of you have failed to meet that
requirement. If you want to exchange petty jabs, you have each others
e-mail. In other words, please take it outside.
RHG
At 10:08 AM 2/25/99 +0200, patsilarasvasilis wrote:
>I do not intent to turn a discussion forum on urban problems to forum of
>national dispute. I will make only a few last comments.
>It behoves the Turkish elit to dispute known facts, they even try to
>re-write history. For that reason I would like to remind the list that
>Turks, originally a Moggolian tribe, apppered on the scene of history, a
>little over one tousand years ago, thousands of years after Kurds, Greeks
>and other Balkan races lived in the area. It is not accidental that modern
>Turkey after subdueing local populations and systematically anihilating
>ancient people, is trying to usurp their history. They try to present the
>glorious history of Asia Minor as the history of Turkey, by presenting, in a
>very skillfull way, the ancient Greek and Roman ruins on the Asia Minor
>coast and hinterland as their own. They even say that the Troyan war has
>been the first conflict between Greece and Turkey !! A historic event that
>took place TWO THOUSAND years before Turks first came to the region, from
>Moggolia.
>As for the rest the comments, I leave them on the listers' judgment. When in
>doubt one can visit the Balkan countries and Turkey and judge by himself.
>
>Vasilis Patsilaras
>
>From: cigdem nas
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
>>
>>I would like to raise some questions about what Vasilis Patsilaras
>>wrote:
>>1. How does he come to the conclusion that Yugoslavia achieved a
>>'remarkable level of cohesiveness among its various racial and religious
>>groups'despite 'all its shortcomings and lack of democracy'?
>>2. Has he found a method of 'measuring' the density of national
>>identities? Or maybe he has a detector which beeps when he comes across
>>a national identity? Why is the national identity of the Bosnians
>>written with a double exclamation mark (!!)? Which criteria does he use
>>when he is 'measuring' the density of national identities? How would he
>>choose to define the 'far more distinctive identity' of the Kurds?
>>3. On a scale of 1 to 10, where would he place the 'Turkish ruling
>>bladdy military regime' against the benevolent neighbor, advocator of
>>all things humanitarian, principled and peace-loving NATO ally Greece?
>>I have many more questions to ask. But I believe this is enough for the
>>moment.
>>Cigdem Nas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- signature block follows -----
>>
>>Gabor VARNAI
>>PARDES Urban Policy Research and Consulting Office;
>>Institute of Sociology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences
>>Felsoerdosor 12.
>>Budapest, Hungary
>>H-1068
>>tel/fax: +36-1-3515465
>>e-mail: [log in to unmask]
>>if your answer undelivered: [log in to unmask]
>
>
From: Jim Benson, AICP
Subject: Re: Fwd: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc:
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 18:31:58 CET
I am mostly confused as to why this entire discussion is being sent from
pastsilara...
It seems most of it is happening off-line anyway.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Urban and Regional Planners Network
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of ryan goodness
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 1999 7:53 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Fwd: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
>
>
> I wish you guys would take your school yard fight somewhere else.
> There is
> such a thing as appropriateness, and both of you have failed to meet that
> requirement. If you want to exchange petty jabs, you have each others
> e-mail. In other words, please take it outside.
>
> RHG
>
>
> At 10:08 AM 2/25/99 +0200, patsilarasvasilis wrote:
> >I do not intent to turn a discussion forum on urban problems to forum of
> >national dispute. I will make only a few last comments.
> >It behoves the Turkish elit to dispute known facts, they even try to
> >re-write history. For that reason I would like to remind the list that
> >Turks, originally a Moggolian tribe, apppered on the scene of history, a
> >little over one tousand years ago, thousands of years after Kurds, Greeks
> >and other Balkan races lived in the area. It is not accidental
> that modern
> >Turkey after subdueing local populations and systematically anihilating
> >ancient people, is trying to usurp their history. They try to present the
> >glorious history of Asia Minor as the history of Turkey, by
> presenting, in a
> >very skillfull way, the ancient Greek and Roman ruins on the Asia Minor
> >coast and hinterland as their own. They even say that the Troyan war has
> >been the first conflict between Greece and Turkey !! A historic
> event that
> >took place TWO THOUSAND years before Turks first came to the region, from
> >Moggolia.
> >As for the rest the comments, I leave them on the listers'
> judgment. When in
> >doubt one can visit the Balkan countries and Turkey and judge by himself.
> >
> >Vasilis Patsilaras
> >
> >From: cigdem nas
> >>To: [log in to unmask]
> >>Subject: re:Bosnia, Kosovo and Kurdistan Gabor's question
> >>
> >>I would like to raise some questions about what Vasilis Patsilaras
> >>wrote:
> >>1. How does he come to the conclusion that Yugoslavia achieved a
> >>'remarkable level of cohesiveness among its various racial and religious
> >>groups'despite 'all its shortcomings and lack of democracy'?
> >>2. Has he found a method of 'measuring' the density of national
> >>identities? Or maybe he has a detector which beeps when he comes across
> >>a national identity? Why is the national identity of the Bosnians
> >>written with a double exclamation mark (!!)? Which criteria does he use
> >>when he is 'measuring' the density of national identities? How would he
> >>choose to define the 'far more distinctive identity' of the Kurds?
> >>3. On a scale of 1 to 10, where would he place the 'Turkish ruling
> >>bladdy military regime' against the benevolent neighbor, advocator of
> >>all things humanitarian, principled and peace-loving NATO ally Greece?
> >>I have many more questions to ask. But I believe this is enough for the
> >>moment.
> >>Cigdem Nas
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----- signature block follows -----
> >>
> >>Gabor VARNAI
> >>PARDES Urban Policy Research and Consulting Office;
> >>Institute of Sociology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences
> >>Felsoerdosor 12.
> >>Budapest, Hungary
> >>H-1068
> >>tel/fax: +36-1-3515465
> >>e-mail: [log in to unmask]
> >>if your answer undelivered: [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
>
|