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DC-GENERAL  January 1999

DC-GENERAL January 1999

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Subject:

Re: Metadata for copies of Ansel Adams' photos of mountains [was Re: Bearman paper... Relations]

From:

David Bearman <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

David Bearman <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:41:36 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (259 lines)

Dear Jim,
Of course you are not the creator of the Mono Lisa, but of your bad copy of
it. Indeed when you say that you "have" an information resource, the
resource you have, created yesterday on a xerox machine or scanner, is a
copy of someone's printing of a photograph of the Mona Lisa.
Many different photographers have made images of the Mona Lisa. Some better
than others. Some were taken a century ago and tell us something about the
condition of the painting at that time. Some were taken under art
photography studio conditions with good color bars. Others were taken in
the gallery by visitors.
Art photography is a highly specialized art. Each photographer sees, and
delivers, a different image of the Mona Lisa or any other object. No one
photograph of Notre Dame "is" Notre Dame any motre than one of Monet's
dozens of paintings "is" the church.
If you make a digital copy of an image and print it, the source,
resolution,color metric, technique, and other features will be important
for anyone to judge its value to them as an information resource (and for
different purposes, all kinds will be acceptable resources). In all cases,
the question of whose print of what photograph of the Mona Lisa you made
your copy from will be critical.
In any case, we all agree. You don't have the Mona Lisa.

Since Stu has called the working groups to order, we can start discussing
this on the 1:1 list. When we do, I'd suggest that we first agree on what
1:1 means, whether we like it or not. Then those who don't like it can
agree among themselves on one or many alternative methods of description.
Then the group as a whole can see if it can suggest anything as a proposed
practice. 
David



At 12:29 PM 1/28/99 -0500, James Weinheimer wrote:
>All,
>If I xerox the Mona Lisa, I am not the creator of that picture, no
>matter how much I may want to be. From a bibliographic point of view, I
>guess I could add myself as an extra access point, (it may not do any
>real harm) but who in the world would be interested in my name attached
>to the Mona Lisa, aside from my mother, my family, and myself?
>Also, if Taschen publishers prints new copies of it, that also does not
>make Taschen the creator of the Mona Lisa.
>If you are Marcel Duchamp and take the same xerox and paint a mustache
>on the Mona Lisa's face, he has changed it (it becomes an adaptation).
>In this case, Duchamp becomes the creator. 
>I don't see how and of this changes just because we are talking about
>images on the Internet.	
>	Jim Weinheimer
>	Princeton University
>	[log in to unmask]
>
>
>David Bearman wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Allison,
>> In this case Alex is right. Ansel Adams did not create a jpeg. Karen Coyle
>> created this one. Each DC metadata set (consisting of 15 repeatable
>> elements) references _one_ information resource. This jpeg is _one_
>> information resource. There may be MANY other digital files created and
>> many other negatives, prints etc. Prints made by Ansel Adams from his
>> negative a different from prints made by you from his negative.
>> David
>> 
>> At 09:42 AM 1/28/99 -0600, Smith, Allison wrote:
>> >Alex, although I am very new to the list, and in using Dublin Core
>> >(actually, I'm not yet, but just looking into it's potential for this
>> >project that I'm working on), I have to disagree with you in regards to
the
>> >following way of using the Dublin Core "Creator" and "Contributor"
elements
>> >for describing the "creator" of a scan or metadata about an original
>> >piece.........This is what you said:
>> >
>> >       IMHO, the scanned image would be part of Karen's collection (or the
>> >Library's
>> >       collection), with metadata allocated something like the following:
>> >
>> >       DC.Name = "Image of Mt. Whatsitsname"
>> >       DC.Creator = "Coyle, Karen"
>> >       DC.Contributor = "California Digital Library"
>> >       DC.Contributor = "Adams, Ansel"
>> >       DC.Subject = "Mountain, Mt. Whatsitsname, Landscape, Sunset"
>> >       DC.Format = "image"
>> >       DC.Type = "image/jpeg"
>> >       DC.Relation = "(IsFormatOf) Photo of Mt. Whatsitsname - Adams,
>> >Ansel"
>> >
>> >If we can agree with the DC definition of "Creator" - that it refers to
the
>> >person(s) primarily responsible for (the artistic or) intellectual content
>> >of the item (i.e. the original photo), it would always be Ansel Adams, and
>> >never Karen Coyle.  IMHO, Karen Coyle played a contributing role in making
>> >the photo accessible through scanning the image, creating the metadata,
and
>> >putting it on the web, but we should not confuse her with being the
creator.
>> >
>> >
>> >Think about it this way - in the artworld, many times an artist/printmaker
>> >will have an apprentice.  This person, under the direction of the artist,
>> >may perform all the grunt work involved in making the print EXCEPT for
>> >actually creating the image, choosing colors, paper, etc.  This apprentice
>> >would never be listed as the creator of the print, since he/she was not
>> >responsible for the artistic content of the image itself.  Instead, we
would
>> >list this person as a contributor.  So, why would we ever want to list
>> >"creators" of metadata/scans/etc. of original pieces, as the "creators"?
>> >This is how I would propose writing the metadata:
>> >
>> >       DC.Name = "Image of Mt. Whatsitsname"
>> >       DC.Creator = "Adams, Ansel"
>> >       DC.Contributor = "California Digital Library. Karen Coyle."
>> >       DC.Subject = "Mountain, Mt. Whatsitsname, Landscape, Sunset"
>> >       DC.Format = "image"
>> >       DC.Type = "image/jpeg"
>> >       DC.Relation = "(IsFormatOf) Photo of Mt. Whatsitsname - Adams,
>> >Ansel"
>> >
>> >Would this work?  Any comments?
>> >
>> >
>> >************************************************************
>> >Allison A. Smith
>> >Retrospective Conversion Coordinator
>> >Chicago Historical Society
>> >312 642-5035 ext. 398
>> >[log in to unmask]
>> >Check out the Chicago Historical Society's website:
>> >http://www.chicagohistory.org
>> >************************************************************
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From:        Alex Satrapa [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>> >> Sent:        Wednesday, January 27, 1999 12:48 AM
>> >> To:  Karen Coyle
>> >> Cc:  Dublin Core community-wide list; CIMI Dublin Core Test Bed
>> >> Subject:     Re: Metadata for copies of Ansel Adams' photos of mountains
>> >> [was Re: Bearman paper... Relations]
>> >>
>> >> Karen Coyle wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I feel like we're talking at cross purposes, so let me reduce this to
>> >> > basics. Photo of mountain by Ansel Adams has been digitized by Karen
>> >> Coyle
>> >> > for California Digital Library.
>> >> >
>> >> > 1) Can I create metadata under 1:1 that gives the creator as Ansel
>> >> Adams?
>> >> > If I do and I also desire to include information about how it came
to be
>> >> > digitized, what field does Karen Coyle go into?
>> >>
>> >> IMHO, the photo (or even the negative it was generated from) are stored
>> >> somewhere, like Ansel Adams' personal collection/estate. The owner of
this
>> >> collection would contribute the metadata for the original photo.
Something
>> >> like (pardon my ignorance):
>> >>
>> >> DC.Name = "Photo of Mt. Whatsitsname"
>> >> DC.Creator = "Adams, Ansel"
>> >> DC.Subject = "Mountain, Mt. Whatsitsname, Landscape, Sunset"
>> >> DC.Format = "image"
>> >> DC.Type = "Kodak Photopaper XYZ, 28cm by 18cm"
>> >>
>> >> > 2) Can I create metadata under 1:1 that gives the creator as Karen
>> >> Coyle?
>> >> > If I do and I also desire to include the creator of the photograph for
>> >> > purposes of discovery, what field does Ansel Adams go into?
>> >>
>> >> IMHO, the scanned image would be part of Karen's collection (or the
>> >> Library's
>> >> collection), with metadata allocated something like the following:
>> >>
>> >> DC.Name = "Image of Mt. Whatsitsname"
>> >> DC.Creator = "Coyle, Karen"
>> >> DC.Contributor = "California Digital Library"
>> >> DC.Contributor = "Adams, Ansel"
>> >> DC.Subject = "Mountain, Mt. Whatsitsname, Landscape, Sunset"
>> >> DC.Format = "image"
>> >> DC.Type = "image/jpeg"
>> >> DC.Relation = "(IsFormatOf) Photo of Mt. Whatsitsname - Adams, Ansel"
>> >>
>> >> IMHO, the subjects of both resources are the same. If someone's actually
>> >> looking for pictures by Ansel Adams by selecting DC.Creator = "Ansel,
>> >> Adams",
>> >> they'll get the first one. If they decide to look for copies of that
photo
>> >> that they can look at right now, they might click a button on the search
>> >> interface labelled "Find Related", which automates the search for
>> >> "DC.Relation <contains> Photo of Mt. Whatsitsname - Adams, Ansel". If
>> >> they're
>> >> just looking for images in some format of Mt. Whatsitsname, or just
>> >> generic
>> >> sunset landscapes, they'll get both records.
>> >>
>> >> Which brings up the interesting issue of ... how do we apply unique
names
>> >> to
>> >> resources? But that's a different topic.
>> >>
>> >> I list Ansel as a contributor to the scanned image, because the scanned
>> >> image
>> >> wouldn't have been possible without his (significant) contribution.
>> >>
>> >> The rest of the DC Metadata set (Location, Rights, et al) refer
>> >> specifically
>> >> to the scanned image of the photo. At this point in time, in my role as
>> >> cataloguer, I'll not write up the extra two Metadata records for the
>> >> negative
>> >> and the physical object, since they're not resources under my control.
>> >> IMHO,
>> >> the physical object is under the "control" of the Government
surveyor. If
>> >> the
>> >> Government surveyor had a metadata set describing this significant peak,
>> >> then
>> >> the "owner" of the negative would prepare a metadata set for the
negative,
>> >> including the physical object as a relation. I (in my role as "owner" of
>> >> the
>> >> photo) would include a link to the negative. Then the chain of links
would
>> >> be
>> >> complete.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Alex
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Alex Satrapa
>> >> tSA Consulting Group Pty Ltd.
>> >> Canberra, Australia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> David Bearman
>> President
>> Archives & Museum Informatics
>> 2008 Murray Ave, Suite D
>> Pittsburgh, PA 15217 USA
>> Phone: +1 412 422 8530
>> Fax: +1 412 422 8594
>> [log in to unmask]
>> http://www.archimuse.com
>
>
David Bearman
President
Archives & Museum Informatics
2008 Murray Ave, Suite D
Pittsburgh, PA 15217 USA
Phone: +1 412 422 8530
Fax: +1 412 422 8594
[log in to unmask]
http://www.archimuse.com


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