On Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 02:30:13AM +0000, Rachael Munns :
(are you [gating] welsh-termau to a local news system
(X-Newsgroups: mail.termau-cymraeg). just curious. ;)
> First off, is this the appropriate forum for this discussion?
afaik, it doesn't break any 'rules' in the welcome msg. for this
list... it's been a long time, so here's a torri+gludo jyst for chwi :
"Ein bwriad yw defnyddio'r rhyngrwyd i ymgynghori ac i gynnal
trafodaethau o safon uchel yn ymwneud a^ thermau technegol yn Gymraeg."
netnews terms are tech(nical|nological) and in Nghymraeg
"Efallai bydd angen trafod bathu termau newydd, trafod materion orgraff
sillafu neu genedl enw, gwahaniaethu rhwng cysyniadau ac yn y blaen."
wel, i think we're bath-ing terms (albeit quite specific ones which
would only give pleser to few pbl)
"Ceisiwch gadw eich cyfraniad - cwestiwn neu awgrym neu farn - yn gryno."
i'm being as fyr as ican can
"I wneud hyn bydd cael barn nifer o arbenigwyr pynciol ac arbenigwyr
iaith yn werthfawr."
using the industry-standard software (inn, dnews et. al) albeit on a
dial-up (and merely as a hobby) qualifies one to, at least, /comment/ -
there's hardly a plethora of welshspeaking netnews geeks hogging the
limelite here in w-t?
"CYFRANNU AT DRAFODAETHAU
Yr ydym yn awyddus i gael cyfraniadau adeiladol a bywiog a safonol
oddi wrthych."
the questions vis-a-vis netnews are constructive and reasonable and
based on a real-world problem (wales.* etc) vis-a-vis Welsh+terms.
"Os gwyddoch am eraill fyddai a^ diddordeb mewn cyfrannu rhowch wybod
iddynt"
yep, done that. when seen i a thread concerning tech terms & welsh
i've done my dib-dub-dob bit and let ppl gwybod
this intro was received last about medi 98, and note by the bi :
"Yr ydym hefyd yn bwriadu gosod geiriadur termau rhyngweithiol ar y we."
threats
"Delyth Prys, J Prys Morgan Jones, Iolo W Williams
CANOLFAN SAFONI TERMAU
+44 1248 382955/382800"
>Would it be better taken to wales.cymraeg?
i can count on the one finger of one hand how many welsh academics
(with an interest _and_ role in the standardization diwydiant) %who% have
/posted/ to netnews (excluding those who emigrated to caerychen to become
english academics) (or, indeed, any of the welsh learner lists.)
(but, yr athro i% is a rare pearl ;)
+wales.cymraeg is [propagated] (lledaenu?) very poorly (though it's fair
as far as uk iSpS are concerned). it's certainly an idea to bounce a
suggestion there. rather ye than me.
> In mail.termau-cymraeg, Darren Wyn Rees wrote:
>
> >> Mae'n werth chofio ni chododd y termau Saesneg sy'n cael eu defnyddio yn
> >> newyddion gyda chymorth o unrhyw bwrdd swyddogol. Yn wir, prosiect amatur
> >> oedd "Usenet" o'r ddechrau, a mae'r teimlad hon yn llenwi'r rhwyd heddiw.
> >
> > 1979 is a key-date, as I recall
>
> The creation of Usenet, at Duke University, IIRC.
>
> > : you are, of course, correct and i think i catch the gist of what you're
> > saying. there was no quangoified bureaucracy involved.
>
> I note your dislike of quango's. [...]
this is totally /off-topic/ for welsh-termau - and you know better
i'm making a genuine criticism (probably itself off-topic) on the _lack_
of response by the various quangos vis-a-vis standardization of certain terms
and that includes the bwrdd smwddio.
(had we had a response 6-10 mnths ago, we wouldn't have seen the friction
in uk.net.news.config or wales.config now).
>You might want to consider that the UVV
> and UKVoting are volunteer teams where an offer to stand is accepted.
> There are some things on Usenet for which it's difficult to find hordes
> of people willing to do it.
ditto above : don't assume that all s'bers to welsh-termau know the whole or
any of the background to the debate on & over wales.* (or the welch uk.*
newsgroups).
[...]
> > however, the development of usenet was given a strong fillip from
> > academia (in North America) as other aspects of the net.
>
> Yep.
>
> >> >[followup] neges sy'n dilyn neges arall, a'r [newsreader]
> >> > yn [threading] y negeseuon...
>
> Newsreader is tricky. I can't think of anything that has the simplicity
> of that term and is still a more or less direct translation. "Darlleniadur
> newyddion" is too clumsy, unless it gets abbreviated (and then it'll get
> confused with DejaNews).
fine, any thing with a "ll" in it gets my vote.
> What about trying for an abbreviation of "meddalwedd" to "MW", and using
> "MW-newyddion", "MW-e-bost", "MW-gwe" and so on? It's the best my admittedly
> poor Welsh can manage. :)
there's nothing wrong with your welsh (i've actually had to sit in on
meetings listening to generalismo 'che' kiff's 'welsh' as he lectured a
bunch of mainly 13-15 year olds (from ysgol pam-fi-duw) on strategaeth
and meddiannu theories... now that *was* "poor Welsh" and he doesn't
take kindly to be corrected; i drifft).
> "Threading" is worse. I've checked two dictionaries, and can't find an
> equivalent to the verb "thread" as in "thread a needle". The closest is
> "nodwyddo", which is obviously derived from "nodwydd" and doesn't make
> sense in context.
>
> The best I can think of is to go with "trefnu", and let context sort it out.
> For a noun, "trefn erthyglau" is a possibility.
fine, but really : shouldn't you-know-who be giving some signal on this?
(we know the bwrdd smwddio have no interest in this thing. ignorance is bliss)
> > (some prefer the 'etymology-friendly' implications of using "rheolaeth"
> > for things-control, because that's what control messages are used for:
> > to manage a news system and/or server)
>
> Yes.
>
> > i think you missed "control message" - which is at the crux of this.
>
> "Erthygl rheolaeth". Simple.
dunno, may be.
> >> > [types of control messages : newgroup, rmgroup,
> >> > checkgroup...]
> >> Efallai bydd hi'n gwell i adael rhein yn Saesneg.
> > yes, but by hook or by crook, they'll eventually be translated :
> > eg. a "checkgroup" is, in the simplest form, a /list/ of newsgroups
> > send to "newyddion" with any "newsreader" (gosh, I say, there's more
> > terms...)
>
> But there's a point at which translation simply becomes absurd.
yes, but it does happen : not jyst with welsh
>Translating
> programming languages or email addresses is clearly on the "wrong" side of
> that gap (e.g. you wouldn't rename every OS command you could get your
> hands on to a "suitable" Welsh translation).
i didn't suggest that, but the hyperbole is interesting (i've actually
got a couple of [aliased] commands on this machine, including "gair"
which i often use to fake intelligence and spelling-capability)
>You wouldn't translate a URL
> or an email address. Where is the line drawn?
some frogs send e-mail with froggy headers.
there is many posts to technical newsgroup with some headers
translated into non-English languages whilst (of course)
respecting all the pertinent news RFCs
>I think translating well-
> known acronyms is on the "wrong" side of the line -- a written-out term
> is easily interpretable from context, but an acronym is liable to get the
> "Duh?" reaction.
so it is with english
> "... safle PTFf"
> "Duh?"
> "Ftp site."
> "wel, pam na *wedaist* ti FTP, 'te?"
> If translation interferes with usability or ease of understanding, or
> is simply too obscure, I think a term should be left in its original form.
<barn>
the assumption that english acronyms are themselves 'more clear' is wrong.
</barn>
i'm currently reading thru the guidelines for group creation for a big-8
newsgroup (no, nothing remotely welsh) : the guidelines (written by Lawrence,
and various admin-types mentoring for news.groups) themselves acknowledge
that many RFDs have failed the news.groups processes because people just
don't understand the terminology : RFD CFV etc. and that in english.
so, perhaps i) don't bother translating into english, it's complex enough
as it; or ii) by all means, translate these things into welsh, most
people couldn't care less and don't even understand the english versions
iii) <insert fvrite theori>
> >> Rwy'n meddwl bydd e'n well i gadael termau sydd a^ ddefnydd technegol, fel
> >> y fathoedd gwahanol o erthyglau control, enwau protocolau, a'r fath beth.
> >> Os ddefnyddiwn ni termau Cymraeg yn sgyrsio, dydi hi ddim yn mynd i newid
> >> y ffaith hon: ni weithia'r termau Cymraeg gyda'r meddalwedd newyddion. Y
> >> gorchmynion yw newgroup, rmgroup, checkgroups, ayyb; does ddim ffordd i ni
> >> newid hon.
> > may be, probly
>
> It's not going to happen. There are hundreds of languages. Imagine the
> bloat if every one had to be supported. English *is* the international
> language of computing. It would take a sea change for that to, er, change,
> and the language that comes out on top ain't going to be Welsh. More
> likely Mandarin Chinese, or Japanese.
don't follow all of that. let me drifft here :
i don't think we seem to be differentiating between
computer professionals (those who are going to talk a jargon/
_superset of English no matter /what/ you do)
--and--
your average end-user, subscriber, jo-bloggs, even dafydd e^l
(who doesn't care a fig about the 'code'/'coding' involved as
lang as the software downloads his/her mail, news, porn,
entertainment and other bare necessities of life)
both types above experience computing & the net differently.
(i'm not bloated when i use various parts of the net... i'm faced with
many, many choices which reduce 'bloat'; eg. when i surf by a well-written
welsh website (eg. a tourist industry one) i've set my browser to accept
a certain language, in a certain order (choice, preferences, bloat
reduction). it picks up a page in the language of my choice (and the choice
exists because the web page(s) was weaved in more than one language, because
the marketron said, put welsh pages here cos there's demand, because the
customer research revealed that fact).
as e.g. take the apache webserver s/w (http://www.apache.org) which has
over half the market worldwide. in the srm.config file you can add
# AddLanguage allows you to specify the language of a document. You can
# then use content negotiation to give a browser a file in a language
# it can understand. Note that the suffix does not have to be the same
# as the language keyword --- those with documents in Polish (whose
# net-standard language code is pl) may wish to use "AddLanguage pl .po"
# to avoid the ambiguity with the common suffix for perl scripts.
AddLanguage en .en
AddLanguage fr .fr
AddLanguage cy .cy
then supposing the user reading the pages sets a preference language,
that is seemlessly 'served-up' and you could, in theory, do the same with
a wales.announce newsgroup ... you could [kill-file] (term, verb) the
announce message which (may) have a header indicating "this is in welsh"
"this is in english" "this is in pakistani"... just a means to an end
(translating where appropriate to make things understable, user-friendly).
/yes/ ur correct, english will remain the international language of
computing, /but/ from the point of view of administration, professional
coding, and suchlike. from the point of view of average end-users the
trend is in the /opposite/ direction... more and more software comes with
/alternative/ language files and means of implenting different language
interfaces (i noticed this particularly with [MLM]s & after installing
ezmlm... i note majordomo2 is moving towards internationalization (or "in8l"
(IIRC) as it seems 2b abr8ed 2 9adays; pgp now has complete translations
for at least twenty different languages etc.)
(the only reason we don't have a welsh 'version' of microsoft o/s s/w (as
shipped to all welsh schools) is cos we don't ask/insist on these things (and
take our money elsewhere, if necessary))
> Creating a Welsh locale, so to speak, for suitable software is a possibility.
> Don't know if anyone's working on it ... But this isn't the same thing
> as actually translating commands.
what's a command?
[at one level, you can call a command anything you like!]
> We're not talking about the equivalent
> of setting up a language database for PGP; we're talking about translating
> "PGP" or "locale" to their Welsh equivalents.
people do not usually translate the acronym 'pgp' (pretty good privacy) -
people do, however, translate the commands used to work with pgp
> >> > [ftp site] gofod, 'lle' yn troelli ar ddisg rhywle
> >> Safle FTP? File Transfer Protocol : protocol trosglwyddo ffeiliau?
> > PTFf is what was used for the original RFD (fsck, that's another term...
> > Request For Discussion, see *below*) for uk.politics.welch-assembly
>
> It's a simple translation and makes sense. #include <acronym.disclaimer.h>
but what do the standardization muses think?
> >> > [web site]
> >> > [lluosog, "websites"] safleoedd we? safweoedd? gwefannau?
> >> > rhwydfannau? rhwydlefydd?
> >> Safle we?
> > i've seen about five or six version of this... as used bi various
> > quangos in wales. still interested in the ;lluosog;
>
> Safleoedd we, I guess, to be consistent with the singular.
used was "safweoedd" for the original rfd for uk.politics.welch-assembly -
and some hen had the gall to accuse of using "made up words"
(surely it's fairly obvious, nrly *all* computing 'words' (terms?) r made up)
>Though I do
> like "gwefannau". "Rhwydfan" turns my stomach, because it's too close
> to translating the horror-phrase "Internet site" (web? ftp? gopher? duh?).
>
> Don't S4C and all use "safle we"? If the media are using a term, it's a
> lost battle.
*aarrggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh*
bygar the cyfringis.
the NET *is* part of the media - for all intents and purpose *is* the media
(you can watch live tv on the net, you can listen to live radio...
you can chat in real-time (voice, pictures, text); but, hell, can you do
that in reverse? can you tune into radio-1 and decide to [multi-task]
to your favourite usenet group [wales.config;] etc. /// as e.g. take
wales' biggest selling daily newspaper company the western mail & echo :
they've instructed (by letter last month) all correspondents/reporters
that their texts may be used on the Net in /whatever/ form. in about
five yrs time, we'll be able to download the local 'aberdare liar' npaper
from the web, or have it dlivered by mail. in summary, i think you are
being so pre-post-modern Rachael. don't ignore the the importance of virtual
communities and how cyberspace seems to 'glue' the lot together.)
> >> > [internet service provider] yr acronym "ISP"
> >> Darparwr Gwasanaeth Rhyngrwyd?
> > seems quite reasonable ;) but for some reason we are using
> > "cyflenwydd gwasanaethau rhyngrhwyd"
>
> "Cyflenwydd"? Fill, fulfill, what? <scrabbles for dictionary> "Supplier".
> Since "darparu" seems to be used for gas, electricity supplier and what
> all (and again I'm going by S4C usage here), it would seem to make sense
> to keep that usage for Internet service, which is an "intangible" like
> gas, telephone and so on.
i concur with that - now is the time for santa-standardization to speak
(before these documents are presented and cast in bureaucratic aspic)
[...]
> > (and there's at least 5 - 10 pertinent RFDs that talk about encryption)
>
> Do you mean RFC?
i do do mean [rfc] - i'm blydi dreaming rfc's at the moment
(news.groups is a formidable bearpit )
>If so, there's another one; I'm unable to find any reason
> other than the obvious for not using "Cais am Drafodaeth" here as well.
> How about "Cais am Drafodaeth Technegol" (CaDT, if you insist)?
well, yes, if pbl want that; but i don't think i suggested tranl8ing RFC
> >the CBAC book does not provide terms for the INTERNET
>
> No, but it does provide a limited starting point.
yes - it's actually very good for what it was _originally_ intended
(however, as a different mr zimmerman wrote, 'the times are a changin')
> > the rep from the MEU (a sort of mini-Quango in South Wales) had
> > the gall to describe the terms book to me late last year as
> > totally "up to date" .... </duh> .... prior to making a transaction.
>
> Does the GCSE syllabus deal with the Internet at all?
the terms book is used elsewhere besides GCSE : you may find it
used in primary schools & FE/HE colleges & by people with no connection
with secondary schools & in local government and other sectors
as you might expect : schools nowadays are jumping on the
intranet/networks/internet bandwagons. the internet is no longer
the preserve of a few prissy academics (prsnt company most excepted)
> >> Efallai bydd ddechrau safle we sy'n cofnodi y termau mae pobl yn ddefnyddio
> >> yn syniad gwell; rhywbeth fel fersiwn fach o'r "Jargon File", ond yng
> >> Nghymraeg. Yn lle gwneud rhestr o termau y ddylai pobl ddefnyddio, gofnodi
> >> beth maen nhw'n ddefnyddio.
>
> I'd be willing to handle that -- perhaps a list on the web and in an
> eventual wales.answers group, that lists suggested terms and terms in
> common use?
this is generous of you - but this is not your job.
there are ppl actually paid to do this in the edu-siwpyrstrwythyr.
> I'll bash something out and put it up at
> <URL:http://www.drmach.demon.co.uk/terms.html>.
>
> > [RFD - request for discussion]
> > currently being translated/used as "cais am drafodaeth [CAD]"
>
> Sounds good, though my opinions on acronyms are not changing yet.
then u should also suggest that in the relevant 'config'
newsgroups where these documents will be discussed
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
|
