JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for ITALIAN-STUDIES Archives


ITALIAN-STUDIES Archives

ITALIAN-STUDIES Archives


ITALIAN-STUDIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ITALIAN-STUDIES Home

ITALIAN-STUDIES Home

ITALIAN-STUDIES  July 1997

ITALIAN-STUDIES July 1997

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Jews in Dante's Inferno

From:

[log in to unmask]

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:11:00 -0400 (EDT)

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (160 lines)

Otfried,

Thank you for the many good references.  I have Steve Botterill's book on
Bernard, and I also want to read his translation of De Monarchia, mostly
because I was interested to hear that Dante argues for the separation of
Church and state. 

> But Trajan
>  and, of course, Maimonides had lived and died **after** the descent of
>  Christ and by consequence could not be saved at this descent. Trajan, a
case
>  similar to Ripheus and Cato because normally not eligible for salvation,
was
>  saved by an act of divine grace on the instances of Gregory the Great (and
>  after having first spent some time in hell). It is true that Dante could
>  have invented a similar act of grace for some Jew like Maimonides, but I
>  would restrain from drawing conclusions from the fact that he did not
invent
>  such a story.

I'm very confused about Trajan. In comparing him to Hezekiah, Dante brings
out that Hezekiah prayed, as if this were a gesture that showed he had better
insight than Trajan.  But Hezekiah was praying as a Hebrew, not as a
Christian or to the Trinitarian Christian God.  This is part of what made me
wonder if Dante is following Augustine by having  3 categories rather than 2.
 If Dante is saying that the Hebrews (Jews) had a wrong conception of God
because they did not see him as Trinitiarian, but at least they had a
conception of a monotheistic God, which was more than the pagans had.
 Probably Trajan prayed too, but to the gods and goddesses of ancient Rome,
who as you say don't seem to count for anything. 

I put a lot of weight on Golden Legend, partly because I understand it to
have been the most widely circulated book (except for the Bible) of the
middle ages.  I think Dante changed the story of Trajan and the widow, just
as he changed the story of the harrowing of hell from what appears in the
Gospel of Nicodemus.  I believe in Golden Legend Trajan does <not> get off
his horse to help the widow, because he's on his way to a war which he sees
as a greater priority. 

I have Singleton. But primarily I was sticking closely to the Temple Classics
edition of Commedia.  It may not be the best translation, and the annotation
(Wicksteed and Oelsner) is very uneven.  But it's the edition Eliot is known
to have used, and to have read many times. The TC annotators say Trajan was
saved partly through Gregory's prayers, partly because he was kind (to the
widow?).  Eliot's The Hippopotamus is basically a modernized take-off on
Saint Peter's complaints about the Church, or about certain Popes. A hippo
gets thrown in from the book of Job (behemoth),  and proves to be more
redeemable than the Church or True Church. But I was interested in an
epigraph to the poem that gives a long passage from Saint Ignatius' letter to
the Trallians, wirtten when Ignatius was on his way to be martyred.  

Golden Legend identifies Trajan as personally supervising the torture of
Saint Ignatius, and being particularly brutal.  So I thought maybe Eliot used
that material in part because he  disagreed with Wicksteed and Oelsner on the
issue of whether Trajan was kind.  The story of Gregory praying for Trajan
turns up in several versions.  In one, and I think this might have been
mentioned in GL, Gregory gets his wish but is punished himself because he
should not have been praying for the salvation of a pagan.  Makes sense if it
means that Christians can pray for pagans to be converted to Christianity,
but should not ask that they be saved <without> converting to Christianity.
  Also, Gregory may have been confused in thinking Trajan was kind, or so the
Ignatius episode may suggest.  I thought the salvation of Trajan might be
 almost as opaque as that of Ripheus.  That Trajan was a very bad person,
even though Gregory may have mistakenly thought otherwise, and we can't
really know why he was saved (because we can't understand the mind of God).
 The obvious contrast is Virgil, who seems much more worthy than Trajan, yet
is not saved.

What I want to ask you about is Dante changing the story of Trajan and the
widow, so that Trajan gets off his horse to help the widow.  W&O say that
Dante makes many mistakes (or faux mistakes) in Inferno, as if being in hell
confused his thinking.  He mind becomes clearer, they say,  as he reaches
Paradise.  But what about Purgatorio?  Does he also make mistakes there?  I
find Dante playing a lot with the device of the omniscient reader, who knows
or ought to know more than the characters in the text.  I was trying to
imagine how the Trajan episode would sound to a hypothetical reader of
Dante's day who knew the stories in GL from that source or some other.  The
reader might recognize that Dante's retelling of the story is "erroneous,"
that Trajan did <not> help the widow, that Trajan was not kind (Ignatius),
that Gregory may have been mistaken in thinking Trajan was kind, that it any
case it's not clear (in other versions of the story) that Gregory was doing
the right thing, and that the "reasons" for Trajan's salvation may not be as
clear as they seem.  What I'd be interested in knowing is whether the
"mistakes" in Inferno are supposed to continue in Purgatorio...or even in
Paradiso because I'm noticing faux mistakes there.  As in the conversation
with James.  

If "errors" run through all 3 Canticas, I would assume Dante might be playing
with the idea that to err is human--that human beings never fully understand
because our minds lack the perfection of the mind of God.

>But I am not aware that Bernard had a medieval fame of
>being specifically hostile to Jews (not to speak of "antisemitism").

Usually remarks about Bernard and the Jews turn up more in writings by
historians than in the Dante literature, so perhaps it wasn't thought to have
any relevance to Commedia.  The story I see retold most often is about
Anaclete, who was of Jewish ethnic extraction, wanting to be Pope.  Bernard
is supposed to have said it would be a disgrace for a Jew (or an ethnic Jew)
to sit on the throne of Saint Peter.  The anecdote is so strange I wish I
could find its source.  Assuming that Bernard actually said this, how could
he have forgotten that Saint Peter himself was an ethnic Jew, or a Jewish
(not Gentile) convert to Christianity?  

Could have been the kind of story that developed at a later date because
people thought it was the kind of thing Bernard would have said.  An
encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV, from the late 1700s (on Jews and Christians
Living in the same place) urges the clergy of Poland to be more diligent in
keeping Jews away from Christians, and approvingly quotes Bernard for his
essentially negative ideas about Jews.  So a Jew-hating Pope correctly or
incorrectly thought that his own views were just a restatement of Bernard's
views.  This got me curious enough to check both the 1913 and 1955 editions
of the Catholic Encyclopedia.  The 1913 ed. is quite outspoken about how
wicked Anaclete was--and that he was Jewish.  Maybe we're supposed to read
between the lines and understand that Bernard was correct to oppose
him--either for being wicked or for being Jewish.  

The 1955 ed. made me wonder whether Bernard on the Jews had become an
embarrassment to the Church at some time during the 20th century.  A story
suddenly appears--no source given--that Bernard really loved the Jews. He got
out of his sick-bed to protect the Jews of Germany from a savage persecution.
 Doesn't sound like the same Bernard mentioned in Benedict's encyclical, and
maybe the story is a late attempt to modify Bernard's reputation.  
Steve knows the original documents on this, so I hope he'll sort out the
threads.  I liked his book on Bernard a lot, but it was mostly about Bernard
as a mystic.  I doubt one needs a whole book on Bernard and the Jews, though
a paper or some notes would certainly be interesting.  

Your point about Caiphas being arranged on the ground as if he were crucified
is important, and of course you're right that it's an allusion to the
crucifixion.  I also agree with you completely on the importance of the
eschatological.  I'm just not certain what some of it means.  If the Jews are
to convert at the end of time, it sounds as if somebody is being given a
special dispensation, and I'm not sure who.  Is this to satisfy the desire of
Christians that everyone should agree on the need for baptism? Or is it a
dispensation to the Jews, allowing them to be saved at the 11th hour?  Also,
why just the Jews? Why aren't Muslims to convert to Christianity at the end
of time?  I'm sure the answer is hidden somewhere in the theological
literature.

On the gap you mention in Dante's treatment of modern Jews--that they don't
seem to turn up anywhere, regardless of what Bernard has to say--it might be
just that, a gap.  My feeling that it might be only an apparent gap--that
there might be some small details thus far overlooked that will bear on
it--comes partly from a sense of Dante's symmetry.  I don't have a sense that
he leaves gaps. But of course this is a subjective feeling, so maybe it is
just a gap.
 
pat sloane









%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager