JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for SPM Archives


SPM Archives

SPM Archives


SPM@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

SPM Home

SPM Home

SPM  September 2016

SPM September 2016

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Triple interaction (or higher) in second level model

From:

Martyn McFarquhar <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Martyn McFarquhar <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 16 Sep 2016 10:39:23 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (49 lines)

Hi Leonardo,

In principle what you want to do is possible, although implementing it in SPM will be tricky. The main issue is the fact that you have a within-subject/repeated measures factor in your design. If you want all levels of condition available at the second level then you will need to specify the model using the Flexible Factorial module. Here you will only be able to look at the within-subject main effects, as well as the within-subject x between-subject interactions. To look at the between-subject main effects you would need to specify a second model containing only the between-subject factors, after averaging over the within-subject (so averaging over condition for each subject). The reason for this is that SPM only uses the overall variance of the model in the denominator of the test statistics, however, mixed designs require a minimum of 2 variance components (the between and within) for the different tests. As SPM has no facility for this, you need to force it to be correct by using different models.

You can read about all of this in the introduction of my NeuroImage paper from earlier this year: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811916001622

The other tricky thing is that the Flexible Factorial module requires you to understand how to specify contrasts in over-parameterised designs, as they are less intuitive than the standard cell means contrasts used in SPM. You can read more about that (albeit not in the context of repeated measurements) here: http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnins.2016.00270/full

If you still want to go down the full repeated-measures road, have a look at the Multivariate and Repeated Measures (MRM) toolbox: http://www.click2go.umip.com/i/s_w/mrm.html

All that being said, the conventional way to do this in SPM would be to create the within-subject contrasts at the 1st-level, and then take those to the 2nd-level. In your case there are 3 conditions (A,B,C), so for each subject you would have 3 contrasts: A-B, A-C and B-C. Then you would have 3 between-subject models for each of these contrasts. Interpretation can become more tricky, but this is the usual way around the repeated-measures issue. If you create these models using the Full Factorial module then SPM will automatically create the main effects and interaction contrasts for you. 

With regards to the continuous covariate of interest (biomarker), bear in mind that the main effect test will be assessing whether the regression slope for that covariate is 0. This model will implicitly assume that the slope is the same for every group in the design. In order to assess interactions with the biomarker, you need to tell SPM to create an interaction term with the covariate. This will split biomarker in the design matrix, and a separate slope for each grouping will be estimated. Differences between these slopes can then be tested for.

Finally, the issue of assessing a main effect in the presence of an interaction can be understood from a simple logical perspective. An interaction tells you that one effect differs depending on the levels of another factor. If that is true, how can it be meaningful to assess that effect ignoring (so averaging over) that other factor? In brain imaging it is a little more tricky, however, the use of contrast masking here can really help by allowing you to mask out the interaction effect when looking at the main effects.

So, to summarise in relation to your questions
- "Would it be feasible or sensible to have everything in one model?"
It would be feasible and is perfectly sensible (though 4-way models are hard to interrogate), however, in SPM it will be difficult to do correctly. I would look into this more, and have a look at alternative software, and then decide whether you want to go down this road.
 
- "From what I understand, with this model, by using contrasts I can fairly easily investigate the main effects of: condition, diagnosis, lifestyle and biomarker"
Yes. The main effect of biomarker will be a test on the regression slope against 0.

- "By specifying in the model that my biomarker interacts with each factor, I can also explore the two-way interactions (condition*biomarker, diagnosis*biomarker, etc.)"
Yes. Biomarker will be split by the different groupings, and you can look for differences between the slopes.

- "Is it possible to investigate 3 and/or 4 level interactions such as condition*diagnosis*biomarker or condition*diagnosis*lifestyle*biomarker?"
Possibly in SPM, but my hunch is that it would be difficult. Alternative software may make this easier to do.

- "I keep hearing that if an interaction is present in the model, the main effect should not be interpreted. This seems strange to me and I would like to know if you think this applies to SPM. For example, if I had condition*diagnosis*biomarker in the model, could condition*diagnosis still be interpreted?"
As I said above, this more of a logical argument. If you know that diagnosis*biomarker differs depending on the level of condition, how is it sensible to ignore that and just look at  diagnosis*biomarker averaged over condition? What would that tell you?

Hope that all helps.

Best wishes
Martyn
 
-------------------------------------------------
Martyn McFarquhar, PhD
Neuroscience and Psychiatry Unit
G.708 Stopford Building
The University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester
M13 9PL
 
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 7764
-------------------------------------------------

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000
1999
1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager