Really shouldn't bite, because this "debate" doesn't relate to archaeology at all, but last time I checked 59.1% of British voters DID NOT vote for the current government.
The main failure of the Brexiteers, for me, is to claim they're doing this for democracy whilst ignoring that stark fact, so all their claims along that line ring resoundingly hollow to me.
Will now go back to trying to ignore these emails and deleting most of them unread...
Historic Environment Record Officer
From: British archaeology discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: 31 May 2016 12:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BRITARCH] Vote Leave
Kevin, I have answered your questions and I see no reason to fill up the list further.
But fundamentally, it seems to me the ONLY reason you are so against democracy and so in favour of the anti-democratic EU, is because you dislike the democratic choice of government of the rest of the people of the UK.
On 31/05/2016 12:32, Kevin Flude wrote:
> 1. You have nothing to say about the threat to the BBC from a Right
> wing Conservative government coming in on the back of Brexit. The BBC
> is also much more than a news service.
> 2. You sidestep the argument about the NHS and concentrate on your
> idea of the coming failure of the economy in the EU. You do not
> address the risk to the NHS from a Right wing Conservative government
> coming in on the back of Brexit.
> 3.you have no argument about tolerance and a threat from a Right wing
> Conservative government coming in on the back of Brexit.
> 4. You discuss risk to workers in a failing EU but fail to address the
> threat to workers rights from a Right wing Conservative government
> coming in on the back of Brexit. For you a wage below the cost of
> living is clearly a boost to the economy.
> You don't mention whether a Right wing Conservative government coming
> in on the back of Brexit is likely to be good for archaeology.
> I'm not engaging with your argument in detail because I think it is
> beside the point. But your argument about an association of states,
> encompasses Europe and the States, but it is also true of Great
> Britain, and here a common currency and political union does not seem
> to invariable led to the sort of outcomes which you seem to think are
> inevitable for Europe.
> What is happening to Europe is partly at least because of a huge
> financial crash which you can blame on London, New York and Tokyo and
> a new phenomena called Globalisation. Its not caused by Europe.
> I don't think anyone knows what the economic effect will be of BREXIT,
> its all smoke and mirrors. What we do know is that it is very likely
> that a vote for Brexit is likely to bring in a very unpleasant Right
> wing government into power, full of mavericks who seem to me to be the
> biggest threat to British values since Enoch Powell.
> Kevin Flude
> Creative Director: The Old Operating Theatre Museum And Did Those
> Feet/Cultural Heritage Resources Web site http://www.chr.org.uk
> On 31 May 2016 at 11:03, Michael <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> On 30/05/2016 07:38, Kevin Flude wrote:
> OK, Michael, I respect your passion for democracy and the
> British way of
> But do you really think British values are more at risk from
> Europe or from
> right wing Conservatives?
> 1. Does Europe threaten the BBC?
> 2.Is Europe a threat to the NHS?
> 3. Is Europe a threat to decent British values of tolerance?
> 4. Is Europe a threat to workers rights?
> "Europe" is not a threat to anyone.
> 1. Does EU threaten the BBC?
> The BBC are threatened not so much by the EU, but by the way the
> internet bypasses the media and allows people to hear the truth
> which the BBC does not wish to broadcast due to its own internal
> political bias. As a result on more and more subjects people are
> discovering the BBC is far from impartial (e.g. their clear bias
> against Scottish referendum yes - and I say that having voted No).
> The BBC are highly biased almost always being a mouthpiece of the
> current government and the "establishment" (i.e. academia).
> Fortunately their influence (and that of the "establishment") has
> massively decreased due to the numerous other channels and the
> internet. As a result, the BBC bias is becoming more and more
> obvious to more and more people. And it is for this reason that I
> cannot see people being prepared to pay for them for many more years.
> 2.Is EU a threat to the NHS?
> Unequivocally, for two main reasons - the huge cost of the EU and
> the issues free movement forcing nations to do away with "free"
> First on the economics, after Grexit, the amount we already pay
> into the EU will have to massively increase in order to stabilise
> the Euro even though we are not part of that daft project.
> Unfortunately, the alternative is not good either, because the
> Eurozone will fall apart, which will lead to economic crisis and
> massive social unrest which will make the present riots look like
> child's play. Either way if we stay in the EU we will have a lot
> less money for things like academia and the NHS. And if you think
> present austerity is bad, just you wait for the next round that
> will come when Grexit hits (put off to just after Brexit you'll
> note) because there will be no way will not be able to afford the
> same generous public pensions or NHS.
> But, even if you discount the economic chaos facing the EU with
> Grexit the EU is certainly a threat to the NHS. If you are to
> have free movement of people, by the law of human nature, any
> REGION that gives free facilities like the NHS and which has
> unrestricted entry, will inevitably attract health tourism. And
> because we cannot restrict who comes here to use the NHS, it is
> inevitable that in order to make our health service economic we
> need to deter health tourism, and because we can't restrict who
> comes here to use our health service, to avoid costs spiralling,
> we will be forced to move to a model similar to that in other EU
> countries so it is no longer attractive to come here to use our
> "free" services.
> 3. Is EU a threat to decent British values of tolerance?
> 4. Is EU a threat to workers rights?
> The most fundamental worker's "right" is to have work or to turn
> it around you have to be a worker before you get "worker's
> rights". History has time and time again showed that undemocratic
> soviet/Nazi-style bureaucracies like the EU are economic
> disasters. And this is indeed coming true again the more control
> the EU gains. Because with "Europe" being the slowest growing
> continent economically and with the EU destroying small businesses
> which are the future of any economy, and with the massive waste
> and bureaucracy of Europe increasing and economic and social
> unrest about to hit us all after Grexit ...
> We are already seeing massive youth unemployment in many
> countries, and that problem will get much worse after Grexit.
> But the bigger issue is that whilst workers "rights", look
> superficially attractive, what employment law often does is to
> deny people the right to work unless they can find an employer who
> can afford the workers. For example, in the US a recent study
> showed that as a result of the minimum wage for young people,
> those young people lost work in fast food outlets that then
> started using Robots.
> So, increasing "worker's rights" often has the opposite effect -
> of denying people the most fundamental worker's right and that is
> a job.
> And if you then start applying such measures across disparate
> economic areas like the EU - what you then find, is that areas of
> deprivation with low investment in economic infrastructure become
> unable to compete with wealthier regions with high economic
> investment. In other words, "workers rights" tend to deny work to
> those in deprived areas who have little going for them other than
> that they will would rather sacrifice a few "rights" in return for
> having the most fundamental right of being in work. That is one
> reason why the US has managed to stay together - very few worker's
> rights means poorly performing areas can attract work.
> To take a simple example in the EU. If you require companies
> working in East Europe to pay the same wages and conditions as
> those in Germany - there is absolutely no point for an industry
> whose main cost is worker's wages to locate in east Europe. The
> wage costs are the same, so what matters is the output per
> employee and as German workers tend to be more productive due to
> culture and historic investment in education etc., there is no
> incentive to go anywhere else but Germany.
> So, rich countries love the EU imposing "worker's rights" on
> poorer regions as it makes poorer areas unable to compete and so
> brings more work and prosperity to areas like Germany.
> So, as a result of "worker's rights" you tend to increase the
> economic problems of less well performing areas, this in turn
> creates massive migration from poorly performing areas to areas
> like the UK and Germany. When you then add on free services like
> the NHS and welfare benefits, areas like the UK then become highly
> attractive to those in deprived areas. This then means the poor
> from East Europe move to the poorer areas of Germany and the UK
> where they directly compete for jobs in these areas. This then
> creates unemployment for the low paid workers in the UK and
> Germany which in turn leads to huge social problems increasing
> deprivation and creating social unrest and intolerance.
> We have already seen a microcosm of this in the UK, with the
> "North-south" divide where many in the North and Scotland are
> hugely resentful of the south. This is undoubtedly the main
> driving force behind the movement for Scotland to leave the UK. It
> is also massively increasing intolerance. I have first hand
> experienced the anti-English racism that has led to in Scotland. I
> have also seen a marked increase in anti-Scottish racism from
> those in England.
> So, yes the EU is a direct threat to our historic tolerance.
> Because not only will the EU increase the disparity between
> nations which were stupid enough to take so diametrically opposed
> countries like Greece and Germany into the same currency - but in
> turn that disparity will lead to mass population movements, the
> creation of issues for the poor even in countries which are
> generally doing well - and when the EU AS IS MUST - tries to
> address all these economic and social issues by massive taxation
> to enable transfer payments from the "HARD WORKING" prosperous
> areas to the "FRIVOLOUS" areas like Greece - this will create huge
> resentment of those bearing the increased taxation of the poorer
> regions and peoples.
> Mike Haseler
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