Kevin, I have answered your questions and I see no reason to fill up the
But fundamentally, it seems to me the ONLY reason you are so against
democracy and so in favour of the anti-democratic EU, is because you
dislike the democratic choice of government of the rest of the people of
On 31/05/2016 12:32, Kevin Flude wrote:
> 1. You have nothing to say about the threat to the BBC from a Right
> wing Conservative government coming in on the back of Brexit. The BBC
> is also much more than a news service.
> 2. You sidestep the argument about the NHS and concentrate on your
> idea of the coming failure of the economy in the EU. You do not
> address the risk to the NHS from a Right wing Conservative government
> coming in on the back of Brexit.
> 3.you have no argument about tolerance and a threat from a Right wing
> Conservative government coming in on the back of Brexit.
> 4. You discuss risk to workers in a failing EU but fail to address the
> threat to workers rights from a Right wing Conservative government
> coming in on the back of Brexit. For you a wage below the cost of
> living is clearly a boost to the economy.
> You don't mention whether a Right wing Conservative government coming
> in on the back of Brexit is likely to be good for archaeology.
> I'm not engaging with your argument in detail because I think it is
> beside the point. But your argument about an association of states,
> encompasses Europe and the States, but it is also true of Great
> Britain, and here a common currency and political union does not seem
> to invariable led to the sort of outcomes which you seem to think are
> inevitable for Europe.
> What is happening to Europe is partly at least because of a huge
> financial crash which you can blame on London, New York and Tokyo and
> a new phenomena called Globalisation. Its not caused by Europe.
> I don't think anyone knows what the economic effect will be of BREXIT,
> its all smoke and mirrors. What we do know is that it is very likely
> that a vote for Brexit is likely to bring in a very unpleasant Right
> wing government into power, full of mavericks who seem to me to be the
> biggest threat to British values since Enoch Powell.
> Kevin Flude
> Creative Director: The Old Operating Theatre Museum
> And Did Those Feet/Cultural Heritage Resources
> Web site http://www.chr.org.uk
> On 31 May 2016 at 11:03, Michael <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> On 30/05/2016 07:38, Kevin Flude wrote:
> OK, Michael, I respect your passion for democracy and the
> British way of
> But do you really think British values are more at risk from
> Europe or from
> right wing Conservatives?
> 1. Does Europe threaten the BBC?
> 2.Is Europe a threat to the NHS?
> 3. Is Europe a threat to decent British values of tolerance?
> 4. Is Europe a threat to workers rights?
> "Europe" is not a threat to anyone.
> 1. Does EU threaten the BBC?
> The BBC are threatened not so much by the EU, but by the way the
> internet bypasses the media and allows people to hear the truth
> which the BBC does not wish to broadcast due to its own internal
> political bias. As a result on more and more subjects people are
> discovering the BBC is far from impartial (e.g. their clear bias
> against Scottish referendum yes - and I say that having voted No).
> The BBC are highly biased almost always being a mouthpiece of the
> current government and the "establishment" (i.e. academia).
> Fortunately their influence (and that of the "establishment") has
> massively decreased due to the numerous other channels and the
> internet. As a result, the BBC bias is becoming more and more
> obvious to more and more people. And it is for this reason that I
> cannot see people being prepared to pay for them for many more years.
> 2.Is EU a threat to the NHS?
> Unequivocally, for two main reasons - the huge cost of the EU and
> the issues free movement forcing nations to do away with "free"
> First on the economics, after Grexit, the amount we already pay
> into the EU will have to massively increase in order to stabilise
> the Euro even though we are not part of that daft project.
> Unfortunately, the alternative is not good either, because the
> Eurozone will fall apart, which will lead to economic crisis and
> massive social unrest which will make the present riots look like
> child's play. Either way if we stay in the EU we will have a lot
> less money for things like academia and the NHS. And if you think
> present austerity is bad, just you wait for the next round that
> will come when Grexit hits (put off to just after Brexit you'll
> note) because there will be no way will not be able to afford the
> same generous public pensions or NHS.
> But, even if you discount the economic chaos facing the EU with
> Grexit the EU is certainly a threat to the NHS. If you are to
> have free movement of people, by the law of human nature, any
> REGION that gives free facilities like the NHS and which has
> unrestricted entry, will inevitably attract health tourism. And
> because we cannot restrict who comes here to use the NHS, it is
> inevitable that in order to make our health service economic we
> need to deter health tourism, and because we can't restrict who
> comes here to use our health service, to avoid costs spiralling,
> we will be forced to move to a model similar to that in other EU
> countries so it is no longer attractive to come here to use our
> "free" services.
> 3. Is EU a threat to decent British values of tolerance?
> 4. Is EU a threat to workers rights?
> The most fundamental worker's "right" is to have work or to turn
> it around you have to be a worker before you get "worker's
> rights". History has time and time again showed that undemocratic
> soviet/Nazi-style bureaucracies like the EU are economic
> disasters. And this is indeed coming true again the more control
> the EU gains. Because with "Europe" being the slowest growing
> continent economically and with the EU destroying small businesses
> which are the future of any economy, and with the massive waste
> and bureaucracy of Europe increasing and economic and social
> unrest about to hit us all after Grexit ...
> We are already seeing massive youth unemployment in many
> countries, and that problem will get much worse after Grexit.
> But the bigger issue is that whilst workers "rights", look
> superficially attractive, what employment law often does is to
> deny people the right to work unless they can find an employer who
> can afford the workers. For example, in the US a recent study
> showed that as a result of the minimum wage for young people,
> those young people lost work in fast food outlets that then
> started using Robots.
> So, increasing "worker's rights" often has the opposite effect -
> of denying people the most fundamental worker's right and that is
> a job.
> And if you then start applying such measures across disparate
> economic areas like the EU - what you then find, is that areas of
> deprivation with low investment in economic infrastructure become
> unable to compete with wealthier regions with high economic
> investment. In other words, "workers rights" tend to deny work to
> those in deprived areas who have little going for them other than
> that they will would rather sacrifice a few "rights" in return for
> having the most fundamental right of being in work. That is one
> reason why the US has managed to stay together - very few worker's
> rights means poorly performing areas can attract work.
> To take a simple example in the EU. If you require companies
> working in East Europe to pay the same wages and conditions as
> those in Germany - there is absolutely no point for an industry
> whose main cost is worker's wages to locate in east Europe. The
> wage costs are the same, so what matters is the output per
> employee and as German workers tend to be more productive due to
> culture and historic investment in education etc., there is no
> incentive to go anywhere else but Germany.
> So, rich countries love the EU imposing "worker's rights" on
> poorer regions as it makes poorer areas unable to compete and so
> brings more work and prosperity to areas like Germany.
> So, as a result of "worker's rights" you tend to increase the
> economic problems of less well performing areas, this in turn
> creates massive migration from poorly performing areas to areas
> like the UK and Germany. When you then add on free services like
> the NHS and welfare benefits, areas like the UK then become highly
> attractive to those in deprived areas. This then means the poor
> from East Europe move to the poorer areas of Germany and the UK
> where they directly compete for jobs in these areas. This then
> creates unemployment for the low paid workers in the UK and
> Germany which in turn leads to huge social problems increasing
> deprivation and creating social unrest and intolerance.
> We have already seen a microcosm of this in the UK, with the
> "North-south" divide where many in the North and Scotland are
> hugely resentful of the south. This is undoubtedly the main
> driving force behind the movement for Scotland to leave the UK. It
> is also massively increasing intolerance. I have first hand
> experienced the anti-English racism that has led to in Scotland. I
> have also seen a marked increase in anti-Scottish racism from
> those in England.
> So, yes the EU is a direct threat to our historic tolerance.
> Because not only will the EU increase the disparity between
> nations which were stupid enough to take so diametrically opposed
> countries like Greece and Germany into the same currency - but in
> turn that disparity will lead to mass population movements, the
> creation of issues for the poor even in countries which are
> generally doing well - and when the EU AS IS MUST - tries to
> address all these economic and social issues by massive taxation
> to enable transfer payments from the "HARD WORKING" prosperous
> areas to the "FRIVOLOUS" areas like Greece - this will create huge
> resentment of those bearing the increased taxation of the poorer
> regions and peoples.
> Mike Haseler