When UK chooses to stay in EU it will not be for romantic reasons, it will
be because 90% of economists tell that you/we will be (much) poorer without
EU membership. There will be less money to go around in UK and I would
think archaeologists in particular should be concerned about that.
I see no evidence that Eurocrats pursue a one size fits all policy, that
there is growing social unrest, or even diminishing economic performance.
You talk about the Euro, but fail to accept that the Greeks by a massive
majority have chosen to stay with the Euro despite their many
The Euro is a new experiment in currency, but not dissimilar to the gold
and silver standards in the ancient worlds. It is intended to be a
constant store of value and not subject to the whims and money printing
inclinations of the local chief who likes to run his/her own mint. The UK
engagement with quantitive easing is viewed by many in Europe as similar to
a tribal chief clipping his coinage - it works for a while but results in
tragedy. So far the evidence of the Euro is favourable - savings in Euro
have retained their value versus inflation and you cannot say that about
Sterling, several countries which mismanaged their business like Greece and
Ireland and Spain have survived and are now on the road to recovery - with
an own currency they would have gone the way of Argentina. The Euro is not
going to collapse in my opinion and not least because some 20 countries are
depending on the currency either directly or indirectly, and they include
some very powerful economies.
I am happy to debate this with you but perhaps we should get back to
On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Michael <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Paul, watching the UK and Europe is like watching a married couple you
> just know can't get on and it will end in divorce.
> The only real choice is whether it is an amicable divorce (like Brexit) or
> whether relations deteriorate to such an extent that our departure is
> acrimonious (or indeed violent).
> And I know I can put forward logical reasons and try to explain rationally
> that they are best to separate, but unfortunately wishful thinking often
> over-rides common sense. Europe is a great romantic idea and I know why it
> is so attractive to many, but we are already seeing a growing tide of
> resentment at Europe which will only increase and make international
> relations all the worse.
> The more the Eurocrats try to impose a "one-size fits all" approach across
> Europe, the greater resentment will grow - but like all bureaucracies, they
> will always believe that the solution is more stringent rules, so more
> "one-size fits all" policies. We are already seeing the start of the
> vicious cycle of decline with growing social unrest and diminishing
> economic performance which bureaucrats will believe can only be countered
> by more one-fits all rules.
> I don't know what it is about academic economists who failed to spot the
> glaringly obvious banking crisis - but likewise they seem incapable of
> understanding that two economies like Greece and Germany cannot exist in
> the same currency WITHOUT MUCH MUCH MORE CLOSER UNION. Or perhaps they can
> see it, but know that the only way Greece and Germany can co-exist is by
> sharing all finances - and somehow their utopian ideals of a united Europe
> stop them telling the economic truth?
> Whatever the reason for the crazy Euro scheme which has economies as
> divergent as Germany and Greece, the outcome is very clear. Within a few
> decades as the growing rift between divergent economies increase, Greece
> and then many other countries will bail out of the Euro leaving the EU
> dream in tatters. But there will be massive costs incurred trying to stop
> the inevitable - and that will mean massive costs for anyone in the club.
> The only alternative is for the EU to take over almost all tax and spending
> from national governments leaving national governments like the UK
> government in the position of the Scottish executive: a virtually powerless
> talking shop.
> But far from improving the economic performance of Europe, the
> "one-size-fits all" approach across such a vast area with such vastly
> differing economies will severely hit economic growth, yet further increase
> social unrest, create growing tides of nationalistic anti-EU anti-foreign
> (that means ANTI-BRITISH) feelings and politics.
> If the Euro collapses - the economic cost to the UK will be such that we
> will see massive reductions in public spending and most archaeologists on
> this group will feel the economic effects. If we allow the EUrocrats to
> start running our affairs (because with growing nationalism MEPs will just
> vote nationally), we will have no real democratic say over our country -
> social unrest will increase massively - nationalistic politics will
> increase, and the new EU army (to be imposed just after Brexit I am
> hearing) will soon be seen on our streets. All in all, we will have no real
> democracy, the economy will be in tatters and it will be little better off
> than if we were part of the old Soviet union.
> With so many disparate nations, the EU "single state" was always a Utopian
> dream - one that quickly turn into a Utopian nightmare.
> European countries can be the best of friends - when we are allowed to
> freely o-operate, but we were never meant to marry and anyone who forces us
> into "marriage" will find it turns into acrimony and ruins our friendships.
> We in Britain cannot stop the EU project falling apart, but what I would
> sincerely hope we can do, is to seek an amicable divorce, try to remain on
> good terms with those still in the "marriage" and hope that as a neutral
> friend outside we can stop yet another acrimonious dispute wrecking Europe.
> After all that is what we had to do the last two times European nations
> had their last "lover's tiff".
> On 29/05/2016 09:07, PAUL DEVEREUX wrote:
>> This is a well thought out mini-essay, Mike, and I agree with some of it.
>> But this isn't the same as making a case FOR Brexit, which floats on a raft
>> of suppositions and wishes (plus a good dollop of nationalism, xenophobia
>> and nostalgia). The trouble with referendums is that people can end up
>> 'voting' for a populist lower common denominator, driven by the loudest