JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for BRITARCH Archives


BRITARCH Archives

BRITARCH Archives


BRITARCH@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

BRITARCH Home

BRITARCH Home

BRITARCH  May 2016

BRITARCH May 2016

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Vote Leave

From:

Mike Brass <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Mike Brass <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 29 May 2016 17:16:23 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (57 lines)

Nicely put, Dave.

Sent from my phone

> On 29 May 2016, at 12:28, Dave Tooke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Mike your position seems predicated on an unwarranted pessimism.
>
> You sound a bit like some Anglo-Saxon who hated the idea of England, and worried about the Vikings.
>
> There is no European Army being created, no more than there is a NATO army.
>
> Pooling sovereignty doesn't diminish it, rather, it enhances it. Would we be better off as Mercia, Wessex etc.?
>
> A political union was always at the heart of Europe, and that was clear when we initially voted to remain. There many articles explaining this at the time in the popular press.
>
> I have no fear of a United States of Europe. It's worked pretty well for the USA for over 200 years. They are sovereign states who have a common currency, and an over arching Federal structure while retaining a great deal of independent decision making at State level.
>
>
> Dave Tooke
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 29 May 2016, at 11:33, Michael <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Paul, watching the UK and Europe is like watching a married couple you just know can't get on and it will end in divorce.
>>
>> The only real choice is whether it is an amicable divorce (like Brexit) or whether relations deteriorate to such an extent that our departure is acrimonious (or indeed violent).
>>
>> And I know I can put forward logical reasons and try to explain rationally that they are best to separate, but unfortunately wishful thinking often over-rides common sense. Europe is a great romantic idea and I know why it is so attractive to many, but we are already seeing a growing tide of resentment at Europe which will only increase and make international relations all the worse.
>>
>> The more the Eurocrats try to impose a "one-size fits all" approach across Europe, the greater resentment will grow - but like all bureaucracies, they will always believe that the solution is more stringent rules, so more "one-size fits all" policies. We are already seeing the start of the vicious cycle of decline with growing social unrest and diminishing economic performance which bureaucrats will believe can only be countered by more one-fits all rules.
>>
>> I don't know what it is about academic economists who failed to spot the glaringly obvious banking crisis - but likewise they seem incapable of understanding that two economies like Greece and Germany cannot exist in the same currency WITHOUT MUCH MUCH MORE CLOSER UNION. Or perhaps they can see it, but know that the only way Greece and Germany can co-exist is by sharing all finances - and somehow their utopian ideals of a united Europe stop them telling the economic truth?
>>
>> Whatever the reason for the crazy Euro scheme which has economies as divergent as Germany and Greece, the outcome is very clear. Within a few decades as the growing rift between divergent economies increase, Greece and then many other countries will bail out of the Euro leaving the EU dream in tatters. But there will be massive costs incurred trying to stop the inevitable - and that will mean massive costs for anyone in the club. The only alternative is for the EU to take over almost all tax and spending from national governments leaving national governments like the UK government in the position of the Scottish executive: a virtually powerless talking shop.
>>
>> But far from improving the economic performance of Europe, the "one-size-fits all" approach across such a vast area with such vastly differing economies will severely hit economic growth, yet further increase social unrest, create growing tides of nationalistic anti-EU anti-foreign (that means ANTI-BRITISH) feelings and politics.
>>
>> If the Euro collapses - the economic cost to the UK will be such that we will see massive reductions in public spending and most archaeologists on this group will feel the economic effects. If we allow the EUrocrats to start running our affairs (because with growing nationalism MEPs will just vote nationally), we will have no real democratic say over our country - social unrest will increase massively - nationalistic politics will increase, and the new EU army (to be imposed just after Brexit I am hearing) will soon be seen on our streets. All in all, we will have no real democracy, the economy will be in tatters and it will be little better off than if we were part of the old Soviet union.
>>
>> With so many disparate nations, the EU "single state" was always a Utopian dream - one that quickly turn into a Utopian nightmare.
>>
>> European countries can be the best of friends - when we are allowed to freely o-operate, but we were never meant to marry and anyone who forces us into "marriage" will find it turns into acrimony and ruins our friendships.
>>
>> We in Britain cannot stop the EU project falling apart, but what I would sincerely hope we can do, is to seek an amicable divorce, try to remain on good terms with those still in the "marriage" and hope that as a neutral friend outside we can stop yet another acrimonious dispute wrecking Europe.
>>
>> After all that is what we had to do the last two times European nations had their last "lover's tiff".
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>> On 29/05/2016 09:07, PAUL DEVEREUX wrote:
>>> This is a well thought out mini-essay, Mike, and I agree with some of it. But this isn't the same as making a case FOR Brexit, which floats on a raft of suppositions and wishes (plus a good dollop of nationalism, xenophobia and nostalgia). The trouble with referendums is that people can end up 'voting' for a populist lower common denominator, driven by the loudest voices.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager