You didn't, Michael, you answered the questions you wanted to answer not
the ones I posted.
But, I am a fully signed up believer in democracy. I don't think that is
incompatible with support for the EU.
On 31 May 2016 at 12:47, Michael <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Kevin, I have answered your questions and I see no reason to fill up the
> list further.
> But fundamentally, it seems to me the ONLY reason you are so against
> democracy and so in favour of the anti-democratic EU, is because you
> dislike the democratic choice of government of the rest of the people of
> the UK.
> On 31/05/2016 12:32, Kevin Flude wrote:
> 1. You have nothing to say about the threat to the BBC from a Right wing
> Conservative government coming in on the back of Brexit. The BBC is also
> much more than a news service.
> 2. You sidestep the argument about the NHS and concentrate on your idea of
> the coming failure of the economy in the EU. You do not address the risk
> to the NHS from a Right wing Conservative government coming in on the back
> of Brexit.
> 3.you have no argument about tolerance and a threat from a Right wing
> Conservative government coming in on the back of Brexit.
> 4. You discuss risk to workers in a failing EU but fail to address the
> threat to workers rights from a Right wing Conservative government coming
> in on the back of Brexit. For you a wage below the cost of living is
> clearly a boost to the economy.
> You don't mention whether a Right wing Conservative government coming in
> on the back of Brexit is likely to be good for archaeology.
> I'm not engaging with your argument in detail because I think it is beside
> the point. But your argument about an association of states, encompasses
> Europe and the States, but it is also true of Great Britain, and here a
> common currency and political union does not seem to invariable led to the
> sort of outcomes which you seem to think are inevitable for Europe.
> What is happening to Europe is partly at least because of a huge financial
> crash which you can blame on London, New York and Tokyo and a new phenomena
> called Globalisation. Its not caused by Europe.
> I don't think anyone knows what the economic effect will be of BREXIT, its
> all smoke and mirrors. What we do know is that it is very likely that a
> vote for Brexit is likely to bring in a very unpleasant Right wing
> government into power, full of mavericks who seem to me to be the biggest
> threat to British values since Enoch Powell.
> Kevin Flude
> Creative Director: The Old Operating Theatre Museum
> And Did Those Feet/Cultural Heritage Resources
> Web site <http://www.chr.org.uk>http://www.chr.org.uk
> Blog: <http://anddidthosefeet.blogspot.co.uk/>
> On 31 May 2016 at 11:03, Michael <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> On 30/05/2016 07:38, Kevin Flude wrote:
>>> OK, Michael, I respect your passion for democracy and the British way of
>>> But do you really think British values are more at risk from Europe or
>>> right wing Conservatives?
>>> 1. Does Europe threaten the BBC?
>>> 2.Is Europe a threat to the NHS?
>>> 3. Is Europe a threat to decent British values of tolerance?
>>> 4. Is Europe a threat to workers rights?
>>> "Europe" is not a threat to anyone.
>> 1. Does EU threaten the BBC?
>> The BBC are threatened not so much by the EU, but by the way the internet
>> bypasses the media and allows people to hear the truth which the BBC does
>> not wish to broadcast due to its own internal political bias. As a result
>> on more and more subjects people are discovering the BBC is far from
>> impartial (e.g. their clear bias against Scottish referendum yes - and I
>> say that having voted No). The BBC are highly biased almost always being a
>> mouthpiece of the current government and the "establishment" (i.e.
>> academia). Fortunately their influence (and that of the "establishment")
>> has massively decreased due to the numerous other channels and the
>> internet. As a result, the BBC bias is becoming more and more obvious to
>> more and more people. And it is for this reason that I cannot see people
>> being prepared to pay for them for many more years.
>> 2.Is EU a threat to the NHS?
>> Unequivocally, for two main reasons - the huge cost of the EU and the
>> issues free movement forcing nations to do away with "free" services.
>> First on the economics, after Grexit, the amount we already pay into the
>> EU will have to massively increase in order to stabilise the Euro even
>> though we are not part of that daft project. Unfortunately, the alternative
>> is not good either, because the Eurozone will fall apart, which will lead
>> to economic crisis and massive social unrest which will make the present
>> riots look like child's play. Either way if we stay in the EU we will have
>> a lot less money for things like academia and the NHS. And if you think
>> present austerity is bad, just you wait for the next round that will come
>> when Grexit hits (put off to just after Brexit you'll note) because there
>> will be no way will not be able to afford the same generous public pensions
>> or NHS.
>> But, even if you discount the economic chaos facing the EU with Grexit
>> the EU is certainly a threat to the NHS. If you are to have free movement
>> of people, by the law of human nature, any REGION that gives free
>> facilities like the NHS and which has unrestricted entry, will inevitably
>> attract health tourism. And because we cannot restrict who comes here to
>> use the NHS, it is inevitable that in order to make our health service
>> economic we need to deter health tourism, and because we can't restrict who
>> comes here to use our health service, to avoid costs spiralling, we will be
>> forced to move to a model similar to that in other EU countries so it is no
>> longer attractive to come here to use our "free" services.
>> 3. Is EU a threat to decent British values of tolerance?
>> 4. Is EU a threat to workers rights?
>> The most fundamental worker's "right" is to have work or to turn it
>> around you have to be a worker before you get "worker's rights". History
>> has time and time again showed that undemocratic soviet/Nazi-style
>> bureaucracies like the EU are economic disasters. And this is indeed coming
>> true again the more control the EU gains. Because with "Europe" being the
>> slowest growing continent economically and with the EU destroying small
>> businesses which are the future of any economy, and with the massive waste
>> and bureaucracy of Europe increasing and economic and social unrest about
>> to hit us all after Grexit ...
>> We are already seeing massive youth unemployment in many countries, and
>> that problem will get much worse after Grexit.
>> But the bigger issue is that whilst workers "rights", look superficially
>> attractive, what employment law often does is to deny people the right to
>> work unless they can find an employer who can afford the workers. For
>> example, in the US a recent study showed that as a result of the minimum
>> wage for young people, those young people lost work in fast food outlets
>> that then started using Robots.
>> So, increasing "worker's rights" often has the opposite effect - of
>> denying people the most fundamental worker's right and that is a job.
>> And if you then start applying such measures across disparate economic
>> areas like the EU - what you then find, is that areas of deprivation with
>> low investment in economic infrastructure become unable to compete with
>> wealthier regions with high economic investment. In other words, "workers
>> rights" tend to deny work to those in deprived areas who have little going
>> for them other than that they will would rather sacrifice a few "rights" in
>> return for having the most fundamental right of being in work. That is one
>> reason why the US has managed to stay together - very few worker's rights
>> means poorly performing areas can attract work.
>> To take a simple example in the EU. If you require companies working in
>> East Europe to pay the same wages and conditions as those in Germany -
>> there is absolutely no point for an industry whose main cost is worker's
>> wages to locate in east Europe. The wage costs are the same, so what
>> matters is the output per employee and as German workers tend to be more
>> productive due to culture and historic investment in education etc., there
>> is no incentive to go anywhere else but Germany.
>> So, rich countries love the EU imposing "worker's rights" on poorer
>> regions as it makes poorer areas unable to compete and so brings more work
>> and prosperity to areas like Germany.
>> So, as a result of "worker's rights" you tend to increase the economic
>> problems of less well performing areas, this in turn creates massive
>> migration from poorly performing areas to areas like the UK and Germany.
>> When you then add on free services like the NHS and welfare benefits, areas
>> like the UK then become highly attractive to those in deprived areas. This
>> then means the poor from East Europe move to the poorer areas of Germany
>> and the UK where they directly compete for jobs in these areas. This then
>> creates unemployment for the low paid workers in the UK and Germany which
>> in turn leads to huge social problems increasing deprivation and creating
>> social unrest and intolerance.
>> We have already seen a microcosm of this in the UK, with the
>> "North-south" divide where many in the North and Scotland are hugely
>> resentful of the south. This is undoubtedly the main driving force behind
>> the movement for Scotland to leave the UK. It is also massively increasing
>> intolerance. I have first hand experienced the anti-English racism that
>> has led to in Scotland. I have also seen a marked increase in anti-Scottish
>> racism from those in England.
>> So, yes the EU is a direct threat to our historic tolerance. Because not
>> only will the EU increase the disparity between nations which were stupid
>> enough to take so diametrically opposed countries like Greece and Germany
>> into the same currency - but in turn that disparity will lead to mass
>> population movements, the creation of issues for the poor even in countries
>> which are generally doing well - and when the EU AS IS MUST - tries to
>> address all these economic and social issues by massive taxation to enable
>> transfer payments from the "HARD WORKING" prosperous areas to the
>> "FRIVOLOUS" areas like Greece - this will create huge resentment of those
>> bearing the increased taxation of the poorer regions and peoples.
>> Mike Haseler