Is it possible that the pips have been allowed to partially decay prior to preservation? In my experience mineralised grape pips from cess deposits are usually very well preserved but the condition of waterlogged and charred ones can vary greatly.
Kath
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicola Whitehouse" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 14 May, 2015 7:01:27 AM
Subject: Re: Wrinkled grape seeds
Dear all
Could these have gone through the gut at all?
Nicki
Sent from my iPad
On 14 May 2015, at 06:29, Ehud Weiss <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Andy,
After seeing your picture, I agree with Helmut, what you have is not the outer part (seed coat) of the pips but rather the inner part. You have a “cast” of the pips, i.e the endosperm alone. In the fresh material it is rather jelly-like, and are rarely preserved in archaeobotany. Here in Israel, I have quite a lot of such find from a mineralised assemblage from Middle Ages cesspit in the City of David.
Cheers,
Udi
From: Andrew Fairbairn [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 5:33 AM
To: Ehud Weiss; The archaeobotany mailing list
Subject: RE: Wrinkled grape seeds
Dear Udi and colleagues,
Two photos of the grape seeds are attached (front and reverse view) and you can see the wrinkles and “sucking out” on the specimens. Most of the seeds have a length of 2.5-4.5mm and are charred, though some appear to be semi-mineralised. So far from this deposit there are several hundred seeds of this type.
For me they look very similar to the examples in Figure 6 of Tania’s paper on Dikili Tash. The possible association with wine making is very interesting as this is from a probable elite Middle Bronze Age context which has a lot of interesting fruits and spices in it. I do not think they equate well with poorly formed seeds of the type described by Helmut, Naomi and others.
I would be very interested to hear if there are any other opinions about the morphology shown here as it is, in my experience, atypical.
Cheers
Andy
From: Ehud Weiss [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, 8 May 2015 5:51 AM
To: The archaeobotany mailing list; Andrew Fairbairn
Subject: RE: Wrinkled grape seeds
Hi Andy and all,
We are currently working on charring experiments of various grape parts. Must to admit we didn’t included undeveloped pips. However, the mature pips we charred show difference in size, but no wrinkling.
Also, the undeveloped pips I noticed in several sites are all clearly smaller than the mature pips. Andy, what is the size of your find?
Ehud
____________________
Ehud Weiss
Archaeobotanical lab.
Institute of Archaeology
The Martin (Szusz) Department of Land of Israel Studies and Archaeology
Bar-Ilan University
Ramat-Gan, 5290002 ISRAEL
Tel: 972-3-5317090; Fax: 972-3-7384113
[Zohary-Hopf-Weiss 2012 cover-6]
http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199688173.do
From: The archaeobotany mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Andrew Fairbairn
Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 1:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wrinkled grape seeds
Morning all,
Thanks for the continuing responses. The specimens I have are not like the small ones on the images sent by Naomi and Chantel, but more like those in Tania's article. She describes them as "sucked out" rather than wrinkled and that is a much better way of describing it. Deflated even! More next week! Off on a quick holiday
Andy
______________________
Andrew Fairbairn, Associate Professor of Archaeology & ARC Future Fellow. School of Social Science, The University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia. Tel: +61 07 33652780
On 7 May 2015, at 2:20 am, Chantel White <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi Andy,
I've been examining a large assemblage of grape seeds from an Early Bronze I site (Ras an-Numayra) and an Early Bronze III site (Numayra) in Jordan. I've been finding thin, immature-looking seeds that often appear to have a "warped" appearance - photo attached. Are these specimens similar to your wrinkled seeds? After consulting Naomi's publications, I believe these narrow (often asymmetrical) specimens at Numayra indicate the presence of a cultivated/domesticated grape.
The attached photo is from our article in Antiquity last year:
https://www.academia.edu/7194342/A_Recipe_for_Disaster_Emerging_Urbanism_and_Unsustainable_Plant_Economies_at_Early_Bronze_Age_Ras_an-Numayra_Jordan
Best wishes,
Chantel
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Naomi Miller sas.upenn.edu<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hello,
In addition to H. Kroll, some years ago I chatted with Daniel Zohary, who also mentioned that the small (and very narrow…high L:B) grape seeds were from domesticated grapes, and they are a little wrinkled (when you get a chance to upload the images, that’d be good). I wrote a review of west Asian grape seed evidence that included discussion of the Kurban Höyük sequence. In a nutshell: the small seeds indicating domestication start appearing in the Early Bronze Age (third millennium. In addition, from Djarkutan in Central Asia you can see a photograph showing the small and regular size grape seeds; the small one is “wrinkled.” I attach image below.
Miller, Naomi F.
1999 Agricultural Development in Western Central Asia in the Chalcolithic and Bronze Ages. Vegetation History and Archaeobotany 8: 13-19. (see fig. 5, attached) http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02042837
Miller, Naomi F.
2008 Sweeter than Wine? The Use of the Grape in Early Western Asia. Antiquity 82: 937-946.
You can read it on line if it is of interest: https://www.academia.edu/1163067/Sweeter_than_Wine_The_Use_of_the_Grape_in_Early_Western_Asia
Direct from Antiquity if your library has a subscription: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0003598X00097696
Naomi
png>
On May 6, 2015, at 3:15 AM, Adnan Baysal <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi Andy,
A few years back Koç University held a conference particularly on this subject: Vine. If I am not wrong there was a presentation on the wild vs domestic seeds of vine and vine making of that subject discussed in earliest time etc. However, I am not sure whether the proceedings of the conference printed or not yet.
I will check around, let you know
Best wishes
Adnan
On 6 May 2015, at 08:52, Andrew Fairbairn [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Dear all,
I am looking at some assemblages from a MBA pit in Turkey and have a sample full of heavily wrinkled grape seeds. The seeds are not fully rounded-out as with most that I have seen in archaeological deposits and appear to be partly formed. The logical conclusion is that they are immature. Having a quick scan through the literature I cannot find discussion or illustrations of anything similar. Does anyone know of any similar finds or have any opinion on what the wrinkling tells us?
Cheers
Andy
---------------------------
Andrew Fairbairn,
Associate Professor in Archaeology, ARC Future Fellow
School of Social Science | The University of Queensland | Brisbane Queensland 4072 | Australia| Office: Rm 331 Michie Building
telephone 61 7 336 52780 | fax 61 7 336 51544 | email [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> | web www.socialscience.uq.edu.au<http://www.socialscience.uq.edu.au/>
Unless stated otherwise this email represents only the views of the sender and not the views of The University of Queensland
-------------------------------------------------
Naomi F. Miller, Consulting Scholar
University of Pennsylvania Museum
Near East Section
3260 South Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA
tel.: 215.898.4075
fax: 215.898.0657
WWW: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~nmiller0 & http://upenn.academia.edu/NaomiMiller
email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
--
Chantel White, Ph.D.
Postdoctoral Fellow
Department of Anthropology, University of Notre Dame
611 Flanner Hall
Notre Dame, IN 46556-5611
Email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Phone: (617) 331-3506
Website: http://nd.academia.edu/ChantelEWhite<http://bu.academia.edu/ChantelWhite>
jpg>
________________________________
[http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]<http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass>
This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form.
Files attached to this email may be in ISO 26300 format (OASIS Open Document Format). If you have difficulty opening them, please visit http://iso26300.info for more information.
This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net
|
