I know, I know, you think I'm being silly but what my listing (begun above)
is trying to arrive at is a list of what poetry DOES require by way of
naming those it doesn't.
As you were.
"*Vraiment*,
Poetry can be so many more things
Than what people mostly believe it is."
--Anselm Hollo
Halvard Johnson
================
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<http://www.amazon.com/Remains-To-Be-Seen-Works/dp/1933132787/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367618323&sr=8-1&keywords=Halvard+Johnson>
Trapeze <http://issuu.com/swirlmag/docs/halvard_johnson> <--- Newest!
Junkyard Dog
<http://gradientbooks.blogspot.fi/2015/01/halvard-johnson-junkyard-dog.html>
<--- New!
On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> As to what we work with, I've been working in my head on a list of things
> that poetry does NOT require. So far, I've got this (a partial list, and,
> anyone who'd like to add, please feel free to do so; if you'd like to
> argue, just include me out):
>
> words, sentences, paragraphs, stanzas, meter, rhyme, images, metaphors . .
> .
>
> Hal
>
> "*Vraiment*,
> Poetry can be so many more things
> Than what people mostly believe it is."
>
> --Anselm Hollo
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> <http://www.amazon.com/Remains-To-Be-Seen-Works/dp/1933132787/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367618323&sr=8-1&keywords=Halvard+Johnson>
> Trapeze <http://issuu.com/swirlmag/docs/halvard_johnson> <--- Newest!
> Junkyard Dog
> <http://gradientbooks.blogspot.fi/2015/01/halvard-johnson-junkyard-dog.html>
> <--- New!
>
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> 'convincing' is good, Max.
>>
>> As to the sincerity Andrew was talking about, I don't know; sure we write
>> sometimes about what happened to us or others; narrative poems depend on
>> that i guess.
>>
>> I always think of Northop Frye on Milton's 'Lycidas,' a poem that first
>> appeared with many others in a book of elegies, but is really the only one
>> still read (if only in grad seminars). Frye's point was that Milton was, of
>> all who wrote, the leaf close to the man elegized, & that his 'sincerity'
>> was very much in doubt, if demean by that how sincerely he felt about the
>> loss; but how sincerely he felt about the poem he was writing? How
>> 'sincerely' it;s unfolding rope etc strike readers? Ah, a different story.
>>
>> So, with Tim, I come back to the 'fact' that words are what we work with
>> & it's in them, in how they go together that our writing comes.
>>
>> I also recall, & still agree, with Robert Creeley's statement, to the
>> effect, that he writes what is given to him, not to some predetermined
>> concept ...
>>
>> Doug
>> On Mar 16, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> > As in Hollywood, sincerity in poetry is easily faked.
>> >
>> > "*Vraiment*,
>> > Poetry can be so many more things
>> > Than what people mostly believe it is."
>> >
>> > --Anselm Hollo
>> >
>> > Halvard Johnson
>> > ================
>> >
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> >
>> > <
>> http://www.amazon.com/Remains-To-Be-Seen-Works/dp/1933132787/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367618323&sr=8-1&keywords=Halvard+Johnson
>> >
>> > Trapeze <http://issuu.com/swirlmag/docs/halvard_johnson> <---
>> Newest!
>> > Junkyard Dog
>> > <
>> http://gradientbooks.blogspot.fi/2015/01/halvard-johnson-junkyard-dog.html
>> >
>> > <--- New!
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Tim Allen <
>> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Can't let this pass. 'Slippery fish' sincerity certainly is, especially
>> >> when used in the same sentence with 'true facts'.
>> >>
>> >> I wanted to come in on this when Bill said that thing about a word must
>> >> never precede an idea, something which is not just problematic but
>> probably
>> >> impossible- but I never because it gets into that tricky realm of
>> whether
>> >> ideas are always made of words and if not what? pictures, feelings etc
>> -
>> >> but then when pictures or feelings get transferred into ideas don't
>> words
>> >> get involved? - don't go there, it's a swamp. So I didn't. I know that
>> if I
>> >> sat around waiting for an 'idea' before writing a poem I might have
>> written
>> >> about 20 poems in my life instead of 2000 etc - mind you, they might
>> be 20
>> >> very long poems.
>> >>
>> >> Seriously though, sincerity is a real sod to talk about in relation to
>> >> poetry. The multiplicity of voices and tricks of utterance that are
>> >> involved in poetry (never mind the variety of functions that poetry can
>> >> perform) make the normal meaning of sincerity meaningless, and that
>> >> includes the kind of sincerity that Andrew seems to be referring to.
>> >>
>> >> Sincerity in poetry is something else, something that has nothing to do
>> >> with 'true facts', whatever they are.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Tim A.
>> >>
>> >> On 16 Mar 2015, at 05:06, Andrew Burke wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Oh what a slippery fish sincerity is when speaking of creativity. For
>> my
>> >>> practice, the 'true facts' are my basic sincerity, as I see them or
>> >>> remember them, written in plain language
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> Douglas Barbour
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Recent publications: (With Sheila E Murphy) Continuations & Continuation
>> 2 (UofAPress).
>> Recording Dates (Rubicon Press).
>>
>> There is no life that does not rise
>> melodic from scales of the marvelous.
>>
>> To which our grief refers.
>>
>> Robert Duncan.
>>
>
>
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