Hello- I think it is worth considering value from different viewpoints in this discussion. The National Ecosystems Assessment, which came out a few years ago, initially placed a [very] heavy emphasis on the economic value of ecosystem services. Since then, the cultural value of nature has formed a larger part of discussions, and there is possibly a comparable or parallel rethinking regarding museums (or museums could usefully position themselves in this rethinking). Museums with natural history collections can surely play a part in this ongoing formulation of the cultural value of nature and museums, if they engage with these discussions and debates. It is worth recognising that the majority of people value nature for its intrinsic value, and that people have a moral obligation to preserve nature, rather than preserving nature for primarily economic reasons (see, eg. Common Cause 'Values and Frames'). If natural history museums can articulate their contributions towards cultural life, health and well-being, and promoting nature, they would be on to a better thing than simply arguing that they are different from the art world, which is a very weak argument. It is worth focussing on wider value, need and qualitative support for collections from stakeholders, rather than addressing spectres of threat and loss, as they sound like special pleading. Contemporary and future relevance have to be clearly worded if you're going to stand a chance of convincing anyone. I could do a quick plug for the advocacy toolkit we've been putting together in the North West, but most people will have seen that already.
Yours,
Henry
Henry McGhie BSc MA AMA | Head of Collections and Curator of Zoology (Honorary Scientific Associate, Faculty of Life Sciences) | Manchester Museum | The University of Manchester | Oxford Road | Manchester | M13 9PL | 0161 275 2482 | www.manchester.ac.uk/museum | www.facebook.com/ManchesterMuseum | Follow us on Twitter @McrMuseum
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From: The Natural Science Collections Association discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bentley, Andrew Charles
Sent: 12 November 2014 14:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Comment in the Museums Journal
There is also of course the attached.
I also think we should be talking about the cost associated with collecting all of these specimens - the cost of field work, preparation and maintenance are not insignificant in this discussion and should be highlighted. What would it cost to replace all of those specimens even if you could do it - which of course you can't, given that they represent a snapshot in time - which in and of itself is invaluable.
Andy
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Andy Bentley
Ichthyology Collection Manager
University of Kansas
Biodiversity Institute
Dyche Hall
1345 Jayhawk Boulevard
Lawrence, KS, 66045-7561
USA
Tel: (785) 864-3863
Fax: (785) 864-5335
Email: [log in to unmask]
http://ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu
SPNHC President
http://www.spnhc.org
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-----Original Message-----
From: The Natural Science Collections Association discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Judith Price
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Comment in the Museums Journal
If I may suggest, Jerry Fitzgerald and I offered a guideline in our 1996 paper "Categories of specimens: A collection management tool" found in:
http://www.spnhc.org/media/assets/cofo_1996_V12N1_new.pdf
It is useful at least with the bean-counters inside the institution.
Judith
Judith C. Price
Assistant Collections Manager, Invertebrates / Gestionnaire adjointe des collections invertébrés Canadian Museum of Nature / Musée canadien de la Nature PO Box 3443 Station D / CP 3443 Succ <<D>> Ottawa, Ontario K1P 6P4 CANADA
Tel.613.566.4263 / Fax.613.364.4027
[log in to unmask]
Twitter @nature_jcp
www.nature.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: The Natural Science Collections Association discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carnall, Mark
Sent: November-12-14 8:49 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Comment in the Museums Journal
Peter/Dermot
Thanks for your thoughts, it's an interesting area of discussion but hopefully one also for action.
Peter, I don't necessarily agree that a comparison with the art world is entirely pointless, in fact I argue that it's a situation that we should look very closely and carefully at. A single painting may be worth a high amount (although of all natural history collections mineralogical collections are perhaps more readily valued) but that worth has been one that's decided by artists, art curators, dealers and donors. That's not to say it isn't problematic, many art curators are concerned about escalating prices and European museums being priced out (but then they do have support from patrons, art fund etc.). It's really an attitudinal change that's required within our community if we want to explore existing models of the worth/value of collections.
The current model of seeing our collections as priceless and valueless doesn't really help very much and I believe it's one of the reasons why NH museums seem to be being disproportionally cut (see recent links about botanical collections wholesale shut down or destaffed), we don't have patronage in the same way as art/archaeological museums and broader communities with shared interests that we don't bring together thinking about our equivalents of museum curators, amateur collectors and dealers. A spate of recent examples of high value auctions of NH material that after sale has been discovered to be illicitly or illegally acquired highlights problems that we as a consortium should be ideally placed to prevent happening in the first place. That's not to mention the increasingly outmoded way of thinking about our collections and audiences almost explicitly in terms of 'use to science' (as happened at SPNHC/NatSCA this year) and a very poor documented history of movement and preparation of specimens, a very poor documentation of the craft of our specimens including models replicas etc. and a lot of work needed to take advantage of the online space to open up the black boxes that many natural history collections still are.
I understand the concerns of what is perceived to be putting a price tag on collections but there's potentially a lot to gain looking to other kinds of museums which are doing a lot better in many areas, particularly in the current climate we find ourselves in. There's a lot that needs thinking about but I'm really happy to be having this discussion particularly, judging from talks at SPNHC, as esoteric scientific research use of larger collections is drying up and alternative uses and value of collections are becoming more pressing.
Mark Carnall
-----Original Message-----
From: The Natural Science Collections Association discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Davidson
Sent: 12 November 2014 12:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Comment in the Museums Journal
Dermot
Good to hear from you again. I agree that this is a good discussion and a topic that is raised from time-to-time but always well worth exploring - mainly because the financial/social status of museums and collections are constantly changing. This puts pressure on museums, and consequently on curators, to "justify" the existence of their collections and themselves. I can understand that there is a need to know the value of collections from many angles. But there are lots of dangers as well.
Any comparison to the art world is pointless - a single painting can be worth several times the value of my entire collection - it is a true chalk and cheese situation. But as curators, we are painfully aware that the cost of buying top quality display specimens, as opposed to research material, is reaching staggering heights. This places them well out of the reach of even the National Museums and "bean counters" are increasingly aware of this growing monetary value stored away in their own basements and vaults. But a value of several million pounds/dollars/euros is no measure of a specimen's worth and this is a real dilemma for curators. How do we explain to those who have no real idea about this (and why should we expect them to?) that a collection may have a high worth but a relatively low value. They simply see it as an asset which if properly managed can bring in additional funds.
As of yet, I have never been asked to put a value on the collection and I would be reluctant to do so if asked. The collections here at the NMS, do have a degree of statutory protection which means that a wholesale plundering of the collection is not really possible, but the same protection is not afforded to other collections and they are more vulnerable.
Cheers
Peter Davidson
Senior Curator of Mineralogy
Department of Natural Sciences
National Museums Scotland
Chambers Street
Edinburgh
EH1 1JF
Tel: 0131 247 4283
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: The Natural Science Collections Association discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Henry, Dermot
Sent: 12 November 2014 10:34
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Comment in the Museums Journal
A great discussion. We certainly need to tell the 'bean counters' the monetary value of collections, however nebulous the value assigned, but we definitely need to tell the public the 'worth'.
Dermot Henry
Manager, Natural Science Collections
Museum Victoria
Sent from my iPad
On 12 Nov 2014, at 9:10 pm, "Freedman, Jan" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi all,
Some of you may be interested to read a little museum dance off with myself and Mark Carnall at the Grant Museum. We are discussing whether or not the public should be told the value of the collections. Some nice salsa moves from both of us.
http://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/comment/01112014-the-conversation
The Museums Association picked it up from my post which I wrote about the real value of collections:
http://fromshanklin.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/the-real-value-of-museum-collections/
Enjoy.
Jan
Jan Freedman
Curator of Natural History
Economic Development
Plymouth City Council
Plymouth City Museum & Art Gallery
Drake Circus
Plymouth
PL4 8AJ
T +441752304765
E [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
www.plymouth.gov.uk<http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/>
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