Yes Lawrence, like you I've been paying attention to the more factual and objective stuff - learnt a few things too. I read a really good book a few years back (can't remember who by or what it was called) which concentrated on the completely different way the war was seen in Europe, especially central, eastern and southern Europe.
 
On 8 Aug 2014, at 13:55, Lawrence Upton wrote:

> Hi you 2
> 
> My ref to Canada was an attempt to distinguish Canadians from USAmericans,
> MANY of whom...
> 
> well, I wanted to acknowledge Canadian involvement in the slaughter. I
> fleshknow bits of Toronto and that's really it. Many of my Ireland and
> island cousins went there and disappeared! I know a bit more about
> Australia. And just before WW2 hostilities my revolting uncle Raymond
> joined the merchant navy, went to NSW and disappeared until the late
> forties. But I digress.
> 
> Doug, though i am rambling I am a bit pushed for time. I SHALL read at that
> URL in a day or 2.
> 
> Tim, I agree with you entirely. Yet I could not help be surprised when
> Prince Austin Cambridge spoke of the war dead as having died for us.
> 
> I'd been avoiding the stories of loss and grief and gratitude; and only
> attending to the factual bits, like the austro hungarian toffs bickering
> briefly as they bled to death; I heard the summaries of buffoons playing
> chess according to the rules of draughts adding up to a tale that might
> have pleased some futurists, though I can imagine Carra tutting that he had
> washed and wrapped his brushes, but otherwise suggestion mental
> dysfunction; and then this privileged mannekin spouts the colossal lie
> 
> As for the Israelis...
> 
> 
> L
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 August 2014 17:33, Tim Allen <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> Hi poetryetc people.I know I don't post here hardly ever but Lawrence's
>> post and Doug's pointing to the Edmonton Journal thing, which like him I
>> agree with, has prompted me to say something.
>> 
>> What some of us dreaded happening here in Britain as the WW1 centenary
>> approached has indeed happened. The likelyhood of the establishment and the
>> dickybowed historians coming out with their justifications for us (and
>> hence the commonwealth) entering the war, about it being the right decision
>> at the time etc, was very high. It was made even more likely by the renewed
>> respect/sentimentality for the military and its values that due to 'the war
>> on terror' has crept into our media over the past decade. The years of
>> healthy and vital discussion about the stupidity and horror of war has been
>> once again replaced by endless homilies to 'sacrifice' and 'honour' etc.
>> The inbred notions, myths, lies, inverse values and pressures that led all
>> those poor sods to go off and kill each other is now everywhere couched in
>> non-judgmentla terms - everybody is a good guy - except the enemy of course
>> - and the socio/political foundations based on hierarchy, duty, class and
>> obedience that gave structure (and still do) to enable what happened to
>> happen are treated as quite normal givens, like the weather. The fact that
>> the very same inbred notions, myths, lies, inverse values and pressures
>> were shared by the soldiers on the other side doesn't seem to enter the
>> debate any more.
>> 
>> Children are told all about the horror of WW1while at the same time being
>> fed endless homilies to those who enacted the horror.
>> 
>> I am not a pacifist, at least I don't think I am, but I would love to see
>> a record label rerelease Donovan's 'Universal Soldier' in this climate.
>> 
>> And don't get me started on ******* Israel.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Tim A.
>> 
>> On 7 Aug 2014, at 16:20, Douglas Barbour wrote:
>> 
>>> Lawrence
>>> 
>>> Canada was still a colony, more or less (& with our current Conservative
>> government, seems to want to be one again; they also love war although they
>> do little for the veterans of all these wars....
>>> 
>>> What was it for? Here's one answer I agree with:
>>> 
>>> 
>> http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Opinion+Great+save+democracy+Think+again/10083383/story.html
>>> 
>>> And I heard a writer on CBC yesterday Gwynne Dyer, argue (from his
>> latest book) that it was after all the 5th World War but with massive new
>> tech in the armaments...
>>> 
>>> See:
>> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/08/06/gwynne-dyer-on-canadas-entry-into-world-war-i-who-will-fight-the-barbarous-hun/
>>> 
>>> A bit like what happened in Australia & New Zealand...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hmmnnn...
>>> 
>>> Doug
>>> On Aug 7, 2014, at 4:46 AM, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Thanks for this. I wanted to give you all a break from the montages etc
>>>> that I've been posting; though I have plenty more!
>>>> 
>>>> I should perhaps have said that it is unfinished i.e. not yet abandoned
>> &
>>>> may like so many not be finishable i.e. could be thrown away
>>>> 
>>>> "fast breaks" is one of the weaknesses. Often the act of reviewing a
>> poem
>>>> before posting provides the clarity to improve; but this just stuck -
>> the
>>>> sort of intransigence which, in machines, means you have to reboot
>> etc...
>>>> it's a stumble
>>>> 
>>>> I should havve hesitated
>>>> 
>>>> I didn't consider basketball, though now you say it that is vaguely
>> familiar
>>>> 
>>>> The "horror hides" line is what it is. It was originally clearer, but I
>>>> wanted the syntax to mirror the meaning I think; thoug it wasn't that
>>>> deliberate; it became more appropriate as it became more ambiguous; I'm
>>>> glad it causes you to wonder! I'm happy to cause such difficulties!
>>>> 
>>>> Of course, if I decide subsequently that the poem deserves to be thrown
>>>> away then that just because retrospective arrogance
>>>> 
>>>> Now... This side of the cesspit sorry pond it is the anniversary of the
>>>> start of The Great War. I'm not sure how it is over there, the
>> resonances
>>>> and significancies. I won't try to guess, mindful of the Canadian
>>>> involvement.
>>>> 
>>>> I dread to think what's happening on tv (no tv) and haven't been buying
>>>> many papers; but even on BBC Radio 4 (the myth (?) is that its absence
>> from
>>>> the air would be taken as one indication that UK has been "taken out" by
>>>> nukes) it is a little too much on one plate. One broadcast trail has
>> been
>>>> running day by day since before Arch Duke Ferdinand & spouse were
>>>> assassinated in Sarajevo. Day by day we have heard the various notes and
>>>> declarations of our ancestors' leaders, all apparently as capable of
>>>> buffoonery as the present bunch. (Apparently the last words of Mrs
>> ArchDuke
>>>> were "What on earth's the matter with you?" as she too slid to the floor
>>>> and into her death coma
>>>> 
>>>> People began dying almost immediately of the declarations of war. The
>>>> invasion of Belgium is more horrendous than I had known... But I am also
>>>> struck that when anyone speaks of a declaration of war that is from
>> their
>>>> point of view - it is a multiple act along a timeline
>>>> 
>>>> Anyway, declarations are in the air.
>>>> 
>>>> I recall a comic from years back quoting the declaration of war "Her
>>>> Majesty's government therefore declares it is at war with..." (or some
>>>> such). The comic then went on to say "Of course there were only a few of
>>>> them so they had to involve all of us".
>>>> 
>>>> Interestingly, while the politicians were still agonising - and some of
>>>> them were really doing so, not just being gung ho - there were crowds
>>>> outside Buck Hse singing patriotic and jingoistic songs. The narrator of
>>>> that item remarked that the London mob are always ready to support a
>> war.
>>>> 
>>>> So no one declaration. A negotiated group effort, leaving out those who
>> are
>>>> most involved.
>>>> 
>>>> Before the declaration, Winston Churchill quietly put the navy on full
>>>> alert on his own authority
>>>> 
>>>> Individuals anticipate, mobs imitate, leaders watch their backs.
>>>> 
>>>> There is too declarative programming underlying much of our lives. If
>> the
>>>> programmers can be arsed there will be comments identifying them; but
>> for
>>>> most purposes the program is a set of declarations without authors.
>> There
>>>> may be screen statements attributing ownership; but that's not
>> authorship.
>>>> It is just another declaration
>>>> 
>>>> Declarations, as such, are impersonal as train station announcements -
>> and
>>>> i have noticed recently that software messages are increasingly
>> imperative
>>>> - renew your subscription, finish your profile etc
>>>> 
>>>> That's probably more words than this matter warrants
>>>> 
>>>> L
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 6 August 2014 19:36, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Oh but who declares such, L? It makes me wonder...
>>>>> 
>>>>> As in, Does horror hide the broken patterns or is it preisely them?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, 'fast breaks' might have a lot of North Americans thinking
>>>>> basketball ...
>>>>> 
>>>>> I like it but had those little difficulties...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Doug
>>>>> On Aug 6, 2014, at 5:28 AM, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> bones stretch infilling the horizon
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> making shadows rather hideous
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> yet horror's hiding broken patterns
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> those now in the grave
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> awaiting tumbles of bodies
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> fast breaks for all combatants
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> brief markings in shapelessness
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> never quite completed
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Douglas Barbour
>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Recent publications: (With Sheila E Murphy) Continuations &
>> Continuation 2
>>>>> (UofAPress).
>>>>> Recording Dates (Rubicon Press).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Something else is out there
>>>>> godamnit
>>>>> 
>>>>> And I want to hear it
>>>>> 
>>>>>      C.D.Wright
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Douglas Barbour
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> 
>>> http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
>>> http://eclecticruckus.wordpress.com/
>>> 
>>> Latest books:
>>> Continuations & Continuations 2 (with Sheila E Murphy)
>>> http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=962
>>> Recording Dates
>>> (Rubicon Press)
>>> 
>>>         would you
>>> 
>>> care to be more
>>> precise about whatever
>>> it is you are
>>> saying, I said
>>> 
>>>         Bill Manhire
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>