Aargh - try this
Helen Wood's University of Liverpool dissertation “The Fetish of the
Document: An Exploration of Attitudes Towards Archives” (published in New Directions in Archival Research (2000)) is very interesting on this
http://www.liv.ac.uk/lucas/research/
Caroline
-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Caroline Williams
Sent: 09 December 2013 16:51
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
Sorry – the link was not all live
Helen Wood's University of Liverpool dissertation “The Fetish of the
Document: An Exploration of Attitudes Towards Archives” (published in New Directions in Archival Research (2000)) is very interesting on this
http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/taught/archives-and-records-manageme
nt-ma/overview/
Caroline
_____________________________________________
From: Caroline Williams [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 09 December 2013 15:59
To: 'Cates, Jonathan'; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
Makes me think about how people may tend to fetishize certain documents,
investing them with special quality, energy or power etc as they do so -
both archivists and users…
Helen Wood's University of Liverpool dissertation “The Fetish of the
Document: An Exploration of Attitudes Towards Archives” (published in New
Directions in Archival Research (2000)) is very interesting on this -
http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/taught/archives-and-records-manageme
nt-ma/overview/
Caroline
Caroline Williams, BA, RMARA
Independent Archival Consultant
Senior Research Fellow, University of Liverpool
Visiting Professor, Liverpool John Moores University
President, Archives and Records Association
-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cates, Jonathan
Sent: 09 December 2013 15:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
Apologies to any and all who have had more than enough of this thread. All
subsequent views are my own, and hopefully authentic…
I am reminded of two paintings by Leonardo da Vinci, both depicting the
‘Virgin of the Rocks’. In art, just as in archives, notions of
‘authenticity’ have played a huge part in determining value (evidential or
monetary – take your pick). Art historians and Leonardo scholars (I group
them –as they do themselves - separately), have wondered for generations
about the existence of two broadly similar compositions by an artist whose
small oeuvre is otherwise marked by its variety. Perhaps, then, one or the
other was a copy executed by lesser ‘assistants’ (in fact speculation around
the London version has centred on the hand of the skilled, though hardly jaw
dropping, Giovanni de Predis)? Both pictures were apparently commissioned by
the Confraternity of the Immaculate Conception, but somehow neither made it
to their intended home.
Almost 500 years after Leonardo’s death, we are still not sure how and why
the pictures came to be, but their survival can reveal much about the
circumstances of their creation. Technical analysis of the materials,
fingerprints, x-ray and infrared photography… all of these add to our
understanding of these enigmatic images. None of which, I might add, would
have been possible had we not retained the originals. The truth is, one of
them probably did come first, and the other has the hallmarks of a ‘copy’,
i.e. a composition repeated or derived from an ‘original’. How much, though,
did that first image owe to influences, instructions and limitations imposed
at the time? Wherever we begin or end, it is clear that both works, their
author(s), the circumstances surrounding their creation, and subsequent
existence is testament to considerable ‘value’ ascribed to them. They
continue to be cherished, studied, interpreted, and reinterpreted.
So too, are archives. Human history is littered with associations with
emphasis on the canonical, original, and authorial. Never, however, has – or
should – this be at the expense of the opportunities afforded to us by
repeating, refining, remaking (read, copying!). Yes, we can make and save
copies. Often, indeed, the copy becomes the ‘original’ – as it is with Magna
Carta, or a final draft of a novel, and certainly with Domesday. History is
remembered courtesy of the complex and uneven survival of documents,
stories, copies, and artefacts that survive.
In this part digital age, the authenticity or originality of records is
purported to be more in doubt than ever, and with it the value of ‘keeping’
the original. Digital surrogacy is here to stay, and some paper records will
‘format shift’ after they have been appraised, selected, or sampled. This is
inevitable. Having said that, archives around the world are leading on
initiatives to digitally ‘preserve’, maintain and access old or ‘obsolete’
file formats, and ensure that the data and metadata associated with born
digital records is retained and saved, i.e. archives. (one such initiative:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/projects-and-work/
digital-preservation.htm)
Make no mistake, where we know of or keep ‘original’ documents – whatever
their format - we are by no means indulging in a fruitless and costly
exercise.
Authenticity is not everything, but it is something!
For more on the Virgin of the Rocks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_of_the_Rocks - which, I am afraid to
say, is something of the answer to that other (albeit more trivial) question
‘why not always just use Wikipedia?’ Wikipedia is something, but it is not
everything!
Thanks,
Jonathan Cates
Collections Information & Systems Manager | Archives Sector Development The
National Archives | +44 (0) 20 8876 3444
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cook, Bradley D
Sent: 09 December 2013 13:53
To: JISCMAIL Archives
Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
For the Declaration I of course mean the original hand-written version, and
as far as the Magna Charta is concerned I would imagine that the original
1215 version is more valuable (in monetary terms) than later versions.
Either way, I’m sure just about any person would agree that they are the
“originals”. At the very least and in terms of the point I was making these
are the originals one could use in making an argument to any person that
believes that an original document can be discarded after a copy of it has
been made.
Related to this, I remember that about 10 years ago or so there was a show
on cable television that helped people organize their stuff/homes (I don’t
remember the name of the show). On one episode, the “organizer” was telling
the owner of one home that had several boxes of original negatives that they
could simply scan all of the negatives and then dispose of them. Several of
us that saw this episode e-mailed the show about this to let them know how
appalled we were at such advice.
Thank you,
Bradley D. Cook - Curator of Photographs Office of University Archives &
Records Management Indiana University Herman B Wells Library E460
1320 East Tenth Street
Bloomington, Indiana 47405
812-855-4495<tel:812-855-4495>
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Visit our website at:
http://www.libraries.iub.edu/archives
VENI, VIDI, VICI.
From: Payne, Andrew [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 8:21 AM
To: Cook, Bradley D; JISCMAIL Archives
Subject: RE: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
Of course the Declaration of Independence and Magna Carta raise a whole
different question about what counts as the original.
In the case of the Declaration of Independence is it the handwritten version
which was signed by representatives of the Continental Congress after the
4th July or is it the Dunlap prints produced on the 4th July which were
distributed to actually make the declaration real?
Likewise with Magna Carta what is the relative value of the different
versions issued in 1215, 1225 and 1297? As the terms of the charter evolve
each time does this make each an “original”? Does this mean that each has
less or greater value or should they all be taken as a single evolving
document?
Answers on a suitably sized piece of parchment (preferably vellum) or a
digital equivalent!
Andrew Payne
Head of Education & Outreach
The National Archives
Tel: +44 (0)20 8392 5319
Email:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:andrew.payne@nationalarchive
s.gsi.gov.uk>
Web: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk>
See our new document bundle about Attlee's Britain
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/topics/attlees-britain.htm<http://www.
nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/topics/attlees-britain.htm>
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cook, Bradley D
Sent: 06 December 2013 15:53
To: JISCMAIL Archives
Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
As an extreme example, here in the U.S.A., I always use the Declaration of
Independence and/or the U.S. Constitution as an example as the extreme at
one end of this argument; I don’t think any person would argue that you
photocopy (or scan) and then throw away the original.
On the other end there are certainly records that can be, at the very least,
sampled. As an example we used to have file cabinets filled with football
ticket requests (that’s American Football and not what we call Soccer). This
is a perfect example of a record that can be sampled. In this case I might
also advocate that some statistics be compiled on the ticket requests being
thrown away.
I’m not sure what you in the U.K. might consider to be your nation’s most
important document (Magna Charta?), but whatever it may be I would say that
there is your argument. You can also bring up personal/family documents that
one would probably feel should be kept (e.g. birth certificates, photographs
– particularly 19th and early 20th century images where the negatives no
longer exist and were not born digital).
Thank you,
Bradley D. Cook - Curator of Photographs Office of University Archives &
Records Management Indiana University Herman B Wells Library E460
1320 East Tenth Street
Bloomington, Indiana 47405
812-855-4495<tel:812-855-4495>
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Visit our website at:
http://www.libraries.iub.edu/archives
VENI, VIDI, VICI.
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ed Sharpe, Archivist for
SMECC
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 10:34 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
In theory right... if the Orig. was a stored Email. that electronic
image would be the 'true first'
Ed#
In a message dated 12/6/2013 8:31:53 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> writes:
And at that point we will lose many contemporary originals…
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ed Sharpe, Archivist for
SMECC
Sent: 06 December 2013 15:24
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
Paper is good... when the 'PULSE' comes.... it will survive...
any device with semiconductor junctions will be toast....
Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC
In a message dated 12/6/2013 7:13:41 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
OM> writes:
The 'original' document is always required for authenticity , yes.
The look and feel of a manuscript or 16th century paper document yes, too.
However the 'original' is also the blue print, loose the 'original' document
and there is no going back, be it 15thC parchment or 21st electronic.
A lot of electronic records, such as pdf are security led and Microsoft Word
have the security option, copyright plays a key role...
Also, would your friend bin a Monet or Turner original for a digital image?
Richard Aitken ACR
Senior Conservator,
High Life Highland,
Highland Archive & Registration Centre,
Bught Road,
Inverness
IV3 5SS
T: 01463 256438
M:07825 116513
E:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
om>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Meic Pierce Owen
Sent: 06 December 2013 13:57
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
Archivally I agree entirely...and this is where we are at this
point...context and 'content v contact' (that is...what is of value
here- the content or the thing itself?)
-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Payne, Andrew
Sent: 06 December 2013 13:54
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
I would suggest a simple experiment as follows:
1. Select a suitably impressive document - something that has major
local or national historical significance or, if possible, one that would
have deep personal resonance for him (even a personal family document). A
holograph would be particularly good but it's not essential.
2. Transcribe said document into a suitably boring typeface e.g.
Arial 10 point, and print on to A4 paper or display as a Word document on
screen (preferably with all the paraphernalia of menus etc)
3. Keep the original out of sight, but in a conveniently located box
(maybe with a cover and tied up in archival tape etc to add to the theatre).
4. Invite your sceptical friend in and say you wish to show them a
document that you think they will find interesting.
5. Reveal the transcript on screen or paper and discuss the
significance of the document with them to engage them with the "information"
which the document holds.
6. Once they are suitably engaged, dramatically reveal the original
with plenty of theatre to help build their anticipation.
7. Present them with the original, allow them to handle it if
possible, and stand back to monitor reaction.
8. If he can genuinely say he is has no response to the original
document as an artefact (as opposed to simply a piece of "information") then
check his pulse and breathing for signs of human life.
Good luck!
Andrew
Andrew Payne
Head of Education & Outreach
The National Archives
Tel: +44 (0)20 8392 5319
Email:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:andrew.payne@nationalarchive
s.gsi.gov.uk>
Web: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/>
See our new document bundle about Attlee's Britain
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/topics/attlees-britain.htm<http://www.
nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/topics/attlees-britain.htm>
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Oxborrow-Cowan
Sent: 06 December 2013 13:02
To: JISCMAIL Archives
Subject: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions
Dear Colleagues
I have utterly failed my profession. Over a rather good bottle of red last
Friday night I could not convince a friend of the importance of the original
document (even though I have countered this several times for clients). He
simply could not see why you could not just have copies and I was unable to
find what to him was the killer argument. I thought this was an interesting
fact as it perhaps displayed how the general public fail to understand why
archives matter whilst all the time benefitting from their presence. My
friend is very intelligent and certainly no cultural barbarian. So, I
thought I would lay this one before my esteemed colleagues. I also thought
that it might provide some of you with useful ideas for when it is your
Chief Executive rather than a slightly tipsy chum throwing this one at you.
I look forward to all your comments, which I will then collate and pass on
to said friend and see if I can change his mind. All responses welcome both
serious and not so serious
With warm regards
Elizabeth
Elizabeth Oxborrow-Cowan Msc, MIC, RMARA Consultant Archivist and Director
Elizabeth Oxborrow-Cowan Associates
01939 234289/ 07719 609894
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