The Transition Town moement does a lot of good work on permaculture - there
are sessions in or near Cambridge (Transition Cambridge) where one can
learn how to do it. A most worthwhile thing, whatever the situation at
large...
Elizabeth Cary
On Apr 23 2013, Kevin Coleman wrote:
>I was listening to Farming Today on Radio 4 on the way to work and the
>topic under discussion was the impending need for more qualified and
>skilled farmers because the current batch were getting increasingly
>older and fewer new younger candidates were taking up the career
>opportunities available. Apparently the figure I think was needing
>40,000 but as I was negotiating some horrendous potholed highway at that
>moment I cannot be entirely sure that was the correct figure. Anyway the
>consensus was that more needed to be done to reverese the trend. And as
>you say Douglas if the situation means the city folks get flung onto the
>land to survive then yes they will be totally unprepared for what is
>needed to be done.
>I also have been watching Graham Lawton and his new permaculture video
>series online which tells us how to plan and prepare the land for food
>production using permaculture techniques. Even if the land is generally
>degraded through modern monoculture agriculture it is possible to turn
>it around to being intensely productive on a fraction of the plot. But
>that means knowing what to do. Most folks find it hard enough finding
>the bread and milk in the supermarket let alone how to produce it. :)
>Kev C
>On 22/04/2013 23:41, CCG wrote:
>> Given that it may not work, it strikes me it is still imperative that
>> at least some people imagine the consequences of failure and act
>> accordingly. Geoengineering need not be the last line of defence for our
>> species - failure may ensure the loss of modern civilisation but it
>> doesn't necessarily assure extinction. In the failure scenario, the
>> implications of collapse are far more severe if virtually nobody
>> considered, planned and prepared for it.
>>
>> One need only look at historical examples of city dwellers being forced
>> at short notice into agriculture to see the effects of a lack of
>> appropriate education and knowledge, let alone other resources. The more
>> comprehensively people are chained into the system, the more certainly
>> they are going to be dragged down with it when it falls.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Douglas
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion list for the Crisis Forum
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Nissen
>> Sent: 22 April 2013 18:24
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Mega-tsunami in N Atlantic and denial of life-threats
>>
>> Hi Elizabeth,
>>
>> It may not work. However, I don't see any option but to try our utmost
>> to cool the Arctic and save the sea ice - enlisting the best brains in
>> the business - pulling out all the stops - treating it as a war effort.
>> Failure would have such unimaginable consequences for us all.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John
>>
>> --
>>
>> On 22/04/2013 22:57, E.M. Cary wrote:
>>> Do you really think geo-engineering of some sort will really be able
>>> to reverse a lot of this?
>>>
>>> I would hope so, but am a bit sceptical...
>>>
>>> Elizabeth Cary
>>>
>>> On Apr 22 2013, Veli Albert Kallio wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are four sections in Greenland's perimeter that are facing the
>>>> increasing stress from the warmed and wet ice sheet above the coastal
>>>> barrier. The largest one of these is the Melville Bay's coastal
>>>> perimeter (Image 1). The other ones are the Petermann Ice Fjord, the
>>>> Independence Ice Fjord, and quite possibly, the Ilulissat Ice Fjord
>>>> (although it is located in region that is generally becoming more
>>>> buoyant with the bed rocks rising). The other fjord systems are not
>>>> large enough to wear to the sea level however much water will stream
>>>> through them. They simply fizzle themselves out (as the tongue of ice
>>>> retreats onto the dry land).
>>>>
>>>> Greenland ice sheet is readily subsiding the bedrocks on Melville Bay
>>>> - although still at extremely moderate rates (Image 2) which at
>>>> present do not yet suggest immediate concerns of any major subsidence
>>>> event. While Greenland is becoming more buoyant elsewhere, the water
>>>> accumulation within ice on the north and north west Greenland is
>>>> pressing the bed rocks down harder in these regions.
>>>>
>>>> The ice heft (height) is also impacted by Melville Bay's weak land
>>>> containment barrier (Image 3) that allows more ice to escape on
>>>> downhill flows with the rise of the ice sheet somewhat subdued where
>>>> the perimeter barrier is minimal.
>>>>
>>>> The sea bed in front of Melville Bay has fractured bed rock structure
>>>> with large silt-filled fissures opened in the past as the coastline
>>>> bent and subsided (Image 4). In nearby areas - where the land isthmus
>>>> between ice and sea is wide - the bed rocks on seabed appear smooth
>>>> and unbroken.
>>>>
>>>> Unlike today's mild subsidence, Melville Bay has seen vast and sudden
>>>> subsidence events in the past - as evidenced by the immense bed rock
>>>> fissures and associates turbidic rock falls on the sea slope (Image 5).
>>>>
>>>> The few fractured rocks that jut out of ice in Melville Bay seem to
>>>> have stresses from the moving ice and subsidence that is thrusting
>>>> these obstacles towards the ocean - with fissures opening on the
>>>> rocks seen on aerial photographs (Image 6). This section, if it
>>>> failed in massive Storegga-style rock fall, can trigger massive
>>>> tsunamis that hit the Baffin Island's east coast communities.
>>>>
>>>> Namely, a similar plug structure once held back the Foxe-Laurentide
>>>> Ice Dome on the Hudson Strait between the southern tip of Baffin
>>>> Island and the northern tip of Newfoundland (Image 7). According to
>>>> Wally Broecker, when this plug failed, it resulted Heindrich Zero
>>>> [H0] ice berg calving event as the wet ice sheet remainders cascaded
>>>> into the ocean from the Hudson Bay (Image 8).
>>>>
>>>> Vast ice berg grounding marks are today found from deep sea floor
>>>> opposite to the Hudson Strait off South West Greenland coast at 1200
>>>> metres below sea level which were produced by large ice islands. I
>>>> suggest that this resulted in a sudden generic sea level jump and the
>>>> instant Younger Dryas cooling (see the article: Image 9).
>>>>
>>>> In post-sea ice Arctic Ocean (ice-free oceans around Greenland), a
>>>> metamorphosis of Greenland Ice Sheet occurs from the cold, dry,
>>>> stable and moraine-forming ice sheet into the warm, wet, dynamic and
>>>> aggregate-forming ice sheet can potentially unleash similar collapse,
>>>> Heindrich Minus One (H-1) event with subsequent Last Dryas severe
>>>> cooling as the ocean basin between America and Europe once again
>>>> fills with the discharged ice debris from Greenland a "Day After
>>>> Tomorrow" style. (Image 10).
>>>>
>>>> The H-1 / Last Dryas Greenland Ice Sheet destabilisation event will
>>>> represent the last sea ice recovery and ocean desalination epoch in
>>>> the Northern Hemisphere although Ronald Emmerlich poorly assigned the
>>>> cause in his global warming film. Despite of the cold, I would
>>>> suggest this as the last opportunity to reverse the underlying
>>>> climatic warming by furthering "mini ice age" by climate
>>>> geoengineering. The reason being that in post sea ice Arctic will
>>>> have high methane levels, sea level jump removing the global dimming
>>>> effect of sulphur dioxide and other pollutants from industrial
>>>> sources as world's maritime trade goes disarray. We have advocated
>>>> the above case history since the first Rio de Janeiro summit in 1992
>>>> as the correct case history for the demise of the Foxe-Laurentide Ice
>>>> Dome remainders from the Hudson Bay area when the last ice ages came
>>>> to their ultimate end. In particular it is disappointing as we have a
>>>> list of 28 rock formations (sites) we think are in process of heading
>>>> towards the above said scenario.
>>>>
>>>> We should see a further rises in ice quakes in Greenland growing
>>>> exponentially over the next few years as the metamorphosis from the
>>>> cold and dry ice to warm and wet ice occurs. The base of Greenland
>>>> ice sheet converts into a water-clogged honeycombed ice that lacks
>>>> the internal strength to withstand the pressures from the overlying
>>>> cold and dry ice layers that sit above the slushy base. As the base
>>>> destabilises the ice sheet above breaks into large ice blocks that
>>>> then fall into ocean as ice islands during Heindrich event. The ice
>>>> sheet thrust occurs against perimeter with rapid erosion forces
>>>> (cavitation, plucking and kolking) aiding its demise. I have
>>>> suggested, that if Melville Coast becomes a future mouth of sea
>>>> inlet, similar to the mouth of Hudson Strait (Images 1, 7 & 8), that
>>>> this would be called the Banyacya Strait as per the First Nations of
>>>> Americas who put their idea of rapid ice sheet end to the UN General
>>>> Assembly back in 1992 citing their ancient recollections of the
>>>> events that had occurred in their distant collective memory.
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 13:07:06 +0100
>>>>> From: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: Mega-tsunami in N Atlantic and denial of life-threats
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>
>>>>> Very interesting, Aaron. Only problem is, as fast as one might
>>>>> re-freeze the Arctic, GHGs would soon get to work again...what do
>>>>> you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Elizabeth
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 20 2013, Aaron Franklin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes it is possible to refreeze the arctic. All we need is a few
>>>>> hundred
>>>>>> ships and a few thousand fire pumps On Saturday, April 20, 2013,
>>>>>> E.M. Cary <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Is it really possible, now, to re-freeze the Arctic?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Elizabeth Cary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 19 2013, John Nissen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, Peter, I should have mentioned the risk from submarine slide
>>>>> in >> the
>>>>>> Arctic, as one of these caused a mega-tsunami (~20 metres) on the
>>>>>> east coast of Scotland, about 8000 years ago [1].
>>>>>>> Such a tsunami is one of the greatest concerns of scientists
>>>>> working >> on
>>>>>> Arctic methane.
>>>>>>> Obviously there is a risk of triggering a submarine slide from >>
>>>>> drilling
>>>>>> for methane hydrate. However the denial of the Arctic climate >
>>>>> emergency is nothing to do with that. It's not a commercial, cynical
>>>>>> denial. It's to do with other processes in the Arctic and the >
>>>>> life-threatening implications for all of us. It's to do with the >
>>>>> vicious cycle of warming and melting of snow and sea ice, with >
>>>>> dramatic loss of their reflective cooling effect, which threatens
>>>>> (i) > abrupt climate change through weather extremes, (ii)
>>>>> multi-metre sea > level rise, (iii) global warming catastrophe -
>>>>> with or without the > methane. It's too big for most people to
>>>>> handle, so they suppress the > thoughts.
>>>>>>> This is a tragedy in the making, since the window of opportunity
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> action to cool the Arctic and refreeze the ice is closing rapidly.
>>>>>> This golden opportunity for international collaboration with a
>>>>> common > goal of survival is being ignored, even by the top advisers
>>>>> to > government and people like Jim Hansen.
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsunamis_affecting_the_British_Isles#Sc
>>>>> otland_tsunami.2C_6100_BC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 19/04/2013 17:29, PR CARTER wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "PR CARTER"<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 9:10:36 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mega-tsunami in N Atlantic and denial of
>>>>>>> life-threats
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi John there is a documemted methane hydrate Europ tsunami risk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Practically all world govts large and small are invested in
>>>>>>> mining
>>>>>> methane hydrate for natural gas as the next big fossil fuel bonanza.
>>>>>>> The universal govt denial of the Arctic climate planetary
>>>>> emergency is
>>>>>> largely because of the methane hydrate development agenda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter C
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "John Nissen"<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 8:30:15 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Mega-tsunami in N Atlantic and denial of life-threats
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did anybody watch the programme last night on BBC2? I watched it
>>>>>>> today online. The mega-tsunami would be so large that nothing
>>>>> could >> prevent the loss of a vast number of lives.
>>>>>>> It only mentioned one source of tsunami, from the Canary Islands,
>>>>>>> but there's also a source from the Greenland Ice Sheet, if a
>>>>> chunk of >> that slid into the sea. Potentially, it could produce a
>>>>> tsunami of >> one or two orders of magnitude larger! There is
>>>>> geological evidence >> that chunks of ice sheet/dome have slid off
>>>>> in the past, creating >> giant icebergs which crossed the North
>>>>> Atlantic, depositing material >> as far as the coast of France.
>>>>>>> The threat to the UK was rediculously underplayed, with Brighton
>>>>> and >> Bournemouth being the only towns specifically mentioned for
>>>>> damage, >> and London assumed to be safe. The Bristol Channel would
>>>>> funnel the >> tsunami, producing much more damage than the tsunami
>>>>> that occurred >> there a few centuries ago. The nuclear reactor
>>>>> sites in the channel >> (about 7 of them) have never been considered
>>>>> for defence against a >> mega-tsunami.
>>>>>>> One interesting point from the US was that, if there were an
>>>>>>> advance
>>>>>> warning, half the population would go into denial and not take any
>>>>>> notice.
>>>>>>> This is the same denial as we are seeing from global warming -
>>>>> and >> more specifically from Arctic warming. We have had wake-up
>>>>> calls for >> action, as the sea ice retreated dramatically to a
>>>>> record minimum in >> 2007 and with another downward plunge last
>>>>> year, and on course for >> near zero sea ice in September 2015. With
>>>>> the loss of sea ice causing >> warming of the Arctic far above the
>>>>> global average, the jet stream >> behaviour is disrupted and we are
>>>>> experiencing weather extremes that >> can only get worse [1]. This
>>>>> is climate change writ large. Yet the >> government and government
>>>>> advisers are in denial. No action is >> proposed which could
>>>>> possibly have a significant effect on the >> necessary timescale to
>>>>> remediate the situation - and adaptation is >> absurd - as it is for
>>>>> a mega-tsunami!
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] ht
>
>
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