But hey weren't translating Mallarme.

And alexandrines don't remotely sound like pentameter. Regular lign length sounds like regular line length.

Let's agree to disagree. I'm away from my books, including Peter's, but the only way to make this a useful discussion would be to haul out examples and see what the compromises are.



-----Original Message-----
>From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Oct 19, 2012 1:15 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>
>Of course Mallarme' doesn't use iambics or the pentametre, French isn't 
>stressed - and he's using in this instance the alexandrine for which the 
>pentametre, as Manson is very aware, is a deceptively close equivalent. It's 
>a kind of 'naturalizing' that can happen in translation - as you say "to 
>suggest the formalism of the original".
>  Still, we obviously don't agree on this point. I say difficult, you say 
>impossible.
>  Maybe before Wyatt's rhymed and (idiosyncratically metered) 'My galley 
>charged with forgetfulness' was done, Petrarch's 'Passa la nave mia colma 
>d'oblio' would have seemed well nigh impossible to translate? Otr maybe not, 
>as the Tudors wouldn't have seen rhyme as such an insurmountable obstacle.
>Jamie
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 5:57 PM
>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>
>
>Using a degree of regularity to suggest the formalism of the original is a 
>very different matter. And of course Mallarme didn't write pentameter or 
>iambs. I'll stick with unequivocal. But chiefly about rhyme. Or 
>rhyme-and-meter.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Oct 19, 2012 12:46 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>
>>Though the complexity of the original is not in question, I don't see how
>>you can be so unequivocal. Peter Manson, in another note to the translation
>>which I've just found on Jerome Rothenburg's blog, sounds a more cautious
>>note, saying that for Mallarme' the rhymes were essential, but for him they
>>would not be. Fair enough. As regards metre, one of his translations there
>>'The Jinx', which I think very skillful - actually cleaves closely to the
>>pentametre - just to take a few lines at random:
>>
>>Their unmaking is in the hands of a potent angel,
>>his naked sword erect on the horizon:
>>a purple clot occludes the grateful breast.
>>
>>They suck on pain as once they milked the dream:
>>when they give rhythmic form to carnal tears,
>>the people kneel down and their mother rises.
>>
>>These ones are comforted, secure, majestic;
>>but a hundred jeered-at brothers dog their steps,
>>ignoble martyrs to contorted chance.
>>
>>(Only the first and penultimate quoted lines, are not pentametric, allowing
>>for the usual variations of stress, and most very decidedly so.) The metre
>>here doesn't seem at all to have been an artificial limitation, rather the
>>opposite. Rhyme is always going to offer further difficulties to the
>>translator, but difficulties can be challenges.
>>Jamie
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 5:31 PM
>>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>
>>
>>On this I can be unequivocal: a rhymed metered translation of Mallarme that
>>remotely resembles the original is impossible. He's simply too complex to
>>render with any artful or artificial limitations on choice.
>>
>>Here's another test. I read Mallarme in French. It's very difficult French,
>>even for literate native French readers. That difficulty is an essential
>>part of the experience of the poems and of the aesthetic behind them. A 
>>good
>>translation helps the reader of the poem, not as a trot, but because the
>>dialogue takes place at the level of the difficulty--we puzzle it out
>>together, we question together. Most translations of Mallarme simply make 
>>me
>>want to throw the book at the wall.
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Sent: Oct 19, 2012 12:03 PM
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>
>>>'"Closeness" doesn't mean a trot.' - Mark, you may have misunderstood me.
>>>It
>>>wasn't me who introduced the idea of closeness, nor was it me suggesting 
>>>it
>>>was a necessarily desirable quality. And I'm quite able to differentiate a
>>>lexical - word-for-word - 'closeness'  from a closeness of 'effect' (which
>>>was what you and Alison claimed for the translations).
>>>I have checked out quite a few Mallarme' translations, rhymed and unrhymed
>>>as well as plain prose.
>>>Alison quotes Manson's afterword: "‘These translations were done in the
>>>conviction that a translation of Mallarmé should at least be allowed to
>>>sound like interesting modern poetry, and that the … use of rhyme and
>>>regular metre is one of the surest ways of forbidding that from happening’.
>>>Instead, he has given us ‘unashamedly semantic translations of a poet 
>>>whose
>>>best writing seems designed to put a semantic translator to shame.’"
>>> His first aim to "sound like interesting modern poetry" seems to me
>>>unexceptionable - surely it's what we all try to do. His second point 
>>>about
>>>rhyme and metre is questionable - surely it depends on how well these are
>>>managed. And his his claim to be making "unashamedly semantic 
>>>translations"
>>>(with its elegant qualification) would seem at least to licence the
>>>question
>>>I asked.
>>>Jamie
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 4:18 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>
>>>
>>>"Closeness" doesn't mean a trot. The job of a poem is to be a poem. Word
>>>for
>>>word exactitude, if it were possible, would be pretty far from close if 
>>>the
>>>result couldn't be read as a poem. A poem, natch, that suggests the way 
>>>the
>>>original is a poem. Which Peter does. Check out any of the rhymed versions
>>>out there for teir closeness/distance.
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>Sent: Oct 19, 2012 10:41 AM
>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>
>>>>Hi Mark, yes Mallarme' certainly maximizes on potential meanings, and as 
>>>>a
>>>>translator often enough you have to choose sometimes only the one
>>>>impoverished option. Though there are sometimes ways of suggesting what's
>>>>lost. In this case 'Greeting' is certainly an option, but 'benison'?
>>>>   What made me question the idea of the translations being "as close as 
>>>> a
>>>>non-Francophone reader is likely to get" was that, of course, there's
>>>>always
>>>>the possibility of something closer, but more significantly that this
>>>>'Salut' - and not necessarily to its discredit - didn't look as if it was
>>>>particularly aiming for 'closeness'.
>>>>(As for me, I'm only sort of semi-francophone - I can read French ok but
>>>>Mallarme' often goes beyond my limits.)
>>>>  Anyway, I look forward to reading the book,
>>>>Jamie
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 3:17 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It's the usual problem with translation. As a poet whose poem I had
>>>>translated from the Spanish pointed out to me once, "by x I meant both y
>>>>and
>>>>z--but I know that in English you have to choose." And Mallarme always
>>>>intends every possible meaning. As you point out, one can make a case 
>>>>here
>>>>for either choice, but the French is better.
>>>>Do a quick comparison with other translations of say l'apres-midi" or "Le
>>>>vierge le vivace..." You'll find lots of other choices at each juncture.
>>>>But
>>>>Alison is I think precisely right--this is as close as a non-francophone
>>>>reader is likely to get. And for the francophone the translations create 
>>>>a
>>>>dialogue like yours with the original. Finally, a translation is a 
>>>>reading
>>>>of the poem, valuable as such but contestable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Sent: Oct 19, 2012 7:43 AM
>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Alison, sorry to catch this thread after it's already expired, but it
>>>>>was
>>>>>good to read an appreciative review of a poetry translation that pays
>>>>>such
>>>>>close attention to what the translator is doing. Most often the
>>>>>translator
>>>>>is made invisible by reviewers or if visible only to be subjected to an
>>>>>onslaught of nit-picking. I hope it won't look like I'm indulging in the
>>>>>same but Manson's version of 'Salut' doesn't look to me "as close you 
>>>>>can
>>>>>get to experiencing the intoxicating fascination of Mallarmé's work".
>>>>>Translating the title 'Salut' as 'Greeting' rather than, say 'Toast'
>>>>>already
>>>>>loses a primary sense and context. (I'm sure Manson knows this, and 
>>>>>maybe
>>>>>the accompanying notes enlarge on the question.) When Mallarmé repeats
>>>>>'salut' later, Manson uses 'benison' which is archaic and religiose, and
>>>>>I'd
>>>>>have thought moves the poem in awrong direction (whereas other twists
>>>>>like
>>>>>'showboating', I agree, are playful and inventive). The play on the
>>>>>'coupe - 'la coupe de champagne'? -  with its foam (écume) which links
>>>>>cup
>>>>>to boat and then opens up the sea and sail imagery with which the poem
>>>>>ends
>>>>>is far harder to trace or even guess at in the translation. It's a 
>>>>>tricky
>>>>>question because the poem has a well-known history and was first read at
>>>>>a
>>>>>dinner to fete the poet, but also used as an introductory poem for
>>>>>editions
>>>>>of his work. Perhaps Manson is following Marchal here who sees Mallarmé
>>>>>moving away from actual circumstance to "the poetic": "'Salut' n'est 
>>>>>plus
>>>>>un 'Toast' porté au septième banquet de La Plume, mais un salut initial
>>>>>au
>>>>>lecteur, et une dédicace de l'oeuvre." Roger Pearson argues with this as
>>>>>"not strictly true.because. 'Bibliographie' carefully added by Mallarmé
>>>>>at
>>>>>the end of Poésies precisely reminds us of its textual history and
>>>>>implicitly invites us to note and explore the relationship between
>>>>>circumstance and finished poem." Though the
>>>>>  translation certainly has merits it seems to have effaced much of this
>>>>> history and, on the level of word-choice and imagery, it left me
>>>>> somewhat
>>>>> stranded. That said, anyone prepared to grapple with the complexities 
>>>>> of
>>>>> Mallarmé deserves a warm Salut.
>>>>>Jamie
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:27 AM
>>>>>Subject: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Belatedly reviewed for Overland Journal:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://overland.org.au/blogs/poetry-fiction-reviews/2012/10/and-what-an-ear-on-mansons-mallarme/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> xA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Editor, Masthead:  http://www.masthead.net.au
>>>>>> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
>>>>>> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com