Dear all,
For what it's worth, I'd be with Jane and Bill here, for two reasons:
First, intuitiveness for our users: as far as I can see the broad non-archival public (at whom these catalogues are ultimately aimed) find it more intuitive to treat a hyphenated surname as a unit rather than break it up, and to look for Brooke-Taylor, Tim, rather than Taylor, Tim Brooke- . (Assuming the Wellcome had any of his papers - ah, if only.) Certainly the non-hyphenated names are more complex but I suspect in a lot of cases the public inclination is to treat something that doesn't look like a forename as creating a compound surname whether there's a hyphen or not (witness the way everyone does that with Conan Doyle even when it's not actually appropriate - treating it as if it were a compound surname, rather than a family middle name plus an ordinary surname!).
Second, compatibility with other standards in the sector (in our case AACR2), which for those of us in a combined library/archive environment (and our readers) is pretty crucial. (Under the heading of convergence with other sector standards I might also mention that AACR2 could offer a lot of information about scenarios NCA didn't cover: a wider range of languages, and also obscure scenarios like documents ostensibly written by a dead person and channelled via a medium, one of my favourite "how does a standard cope with this scenario?" tests.)
As Teresa says there are issues with who does it - but I do think it's worth looking at a revision, both for our own inter-system compatibility and in order to serve the users better.
Chris
Dr. Christopher Hilton
Senior Archivist
Wellcome Library
The Wellcome Trust
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-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ARCHIVES-NRA automatic digest system
Sent: 11 September 2012 00:00
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ARCHIVES-NRA Digest - 9 Sep 2012 to 10 Sep 2012 (#2012-241)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:25:58 +0100
From: "Stockting, William" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
Hi all,
I whole heartedly agree with Jane here!
There are perhaps some differences between the NCA rules and AACR2 that
can be argued on the basis of the differences between archives and
books, but I've never understood why this was the case for compound
surnames. For this and other reasons, it would be good to take the NCA
rules through a revision process, with convergence with other sector
standards as a guiding principle perhaps. Standards in other areas have
moved on and for example we might find RDA more congenial that AACR2.
The initial question would be, who owns the NCA rules and who would
therefore be responsible for their revision - it would be a significant
effort!
Yours,
Bill
S&C Cataloguing Systems and Processing Manager
British Library
Tel: (0)20 7412 7188
Please think before you print!
-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Stevenson
Sent: 10 September 2012 14:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
Hi there,
I would like to make a plea: can we consider a revision of the NCA Rules
to stop what I think is a completely foolhardy practice of creating
incorrect names?
I am talking about the rules governing hyphenated and compound surnames.
For reasons that I don't fully understand, a decision was taken to enter
these under the 'last entry element'. What this effectively means is
entering the name wrongly.
E.g. Edith How-Martyn was a suffragette. I assume anyone looking her
up or referring to her would reference her as 'How-Martyn'.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_How-Martyn)
Similarly, we speak of 'Lloyd George' not 'George' when referring to
David Lloyd George.
But because our Archives Hub contributors are following NCA Rules when
they catalogue, we get records for "Martyn Edith How, 1871-1944" or
"Lewis, Cecil Day- (1904-1972) poet".
This problem is compounded because we endeavour to structure name
entries with 'surname', 'forename', 'dates', etc. The more structure the
better, in general, but not if you are identifying the surname as
'Lewis' and the Forename as 'Cecil Day'.
We've been thinking about name authorities, and we are part of the SNAC
project to create EAC encoded name records out of EAD records
(http://socialarchive.iath.virginia.edu/), but we'll end up with a
substantial number of wrongly created name entries as a result of this
rule. This practice also flies in the face of the general move towards
data mining and pattern matching that is helping many information
communities to improve the utility of their data.
For example, if we want to match up the entries for the archival creator
(free text entries) and the entries of their name as an index term
(structured entries), it is somewhat more difficult to match "Edith How
Martyn" as the creator and "Martyn, Edith How" as the index entry. Its
not impossible, but it just adds to the complexity that is already
involved in trying to make names machine readable and create 'same as'
links.
I'd be really very interested to hear what others have to say about
this. I feel that the rules were created when cross-referencing was
commonplace, but now what is important is to have well-structured
machine readable data.
cheers,
Jane.
Jane Stevenson
The Archives Hub
Mimas, The University of Manchester
Devonshire House, Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9QH
email:[log in to unmask]
tel: 0161 275 6055
website: archiveshub.ac.uk
blog: archiveshub.ac.uk/blog
twitter: twitter.com/archiveshub
Contact the list owner for assistance at
[log in to unmask]
For information about joining, leaving and suspending mail (eg during a
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:12:56 +0100
From: Doherty Teresa <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
Hi
I seem to remember that the issue was that hyphenated and compound surnames are rarely clear. To take another suffrage example 'Millicent Garrett Fawcett' is referred to both as Mrs Fawcett and as Millicent Garrett Fawcett. Similarly her sister 'Elizabeth Garrett Anderson' is referred to with both hyphenated and singular surnames.
With many less known people where only a textual reference to the person remains it is impossible to tell if a middle name is a middle name or part of an official surname. Indeed some hyphenated first names (Anthony Paul) can be mistaken for surnames (Anthony Paul Smith). The lack of clarity is particularly true the further back in time you go.... Most archives are dealing with records from 'less well known' people, so it is a bit of a minefield.
In order to gain consistency when indexing the decision was taken by the original NCA group to go with the latter element. It was hotly debated at the time and several times since. But the decision was made 'to simplify things' and get on with online indexing as quickly and consistently as possible.
Interestingly the Oxford DNB sticks ultra-consistently with NCA Rules. I think the key thing for users is that if you search for a name it appears - whatever order of words you use
George, David Lloyd, first Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor (1863-1945), prime minister
Martyn, Edith How (1875-1954), suffragist and advocate of birth control
Something else to note is that, the option to cross refer is available via ISAAR(cpf)
5.1.3 Parallel forms of name
5.1.4 Standardized forms of name according to other rules
5.1.5 Other forms of name
So if anyone wants to use AACR2, or RDA, and cross refer this is a valid option. (Though remember AACR2 prefers not to use dates or epithets)
There is also nothing to stop people using AACR2 as their main standard and then cross referring to NCA at a local level. The issue only becomes an issue when exporting data and trying to marry up index terms (e.g. Archives Hub) so there would need to be an automated process to NCA<->AACR2 provided by the Hub for those of us who may choose to remain with NCA.
Re the ownership/revision: NCA is now part of ARA, so I guess it 'belongs' to the Society. There were several mutterings about the standard being revised over the years. And yes the NCA Rules are definitely worth revisiting! There are several issues which clunk along - especially when you look at Places and Corporates in any detail. And the production of new editions of ISAAR ISAD ISDF etc meand that revision is well overdue.
But revising a standard is a considerable undertaking. Previously the work was funded by 7 bodies, with considerable staff input from HMC. Where such resource would come from now is difficult to say.
Teresa
-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stockting, William
Sent: 10 September 2012 14:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
Hi all,
I whole heartedly agree with Jane here!
There are perhaps some differences between the NCA rules and AACR2 that can be argued on the basis of the differences between archives and books, but I've never understood why this was the case for compound surnames. For this and other reasons, it would be good to take the NCA rules through a revision process, with convergence with other sector standards as a guiding principle perhaps. Standards in other areas have moved on and for example we might find RDA more congenial that AACR2.
The initial question would be, who owns the NCA rules and who would therefore be responsible for their revision - it would be a significant effort!
Yours,
Bill
S&C Cataloguing Systems and Processing Manager British Library
Tel: (0)20 7412 7188
Please think before you print!
-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Stevenson
Sent: 10 September 2012 14:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
Hi there,
I would like to make a plea: can we consider a revision of the NCA Rules to stop what I think is a completely foolhardy practice of creating incorrect names?
I am talking about the rules governing hyphenated and compound surnames.
For reasons that I don't fully understand, a decision was taken to enter these under the 'last entry element'. What this effectively means is entering the name wrongly.
E.g. Edith How-Martyn was a suffragette. I assume anyone looking her
up or referring to her would reference her as 'How-Martyn'.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_How-Martyn)
Similarly, we speak of 'Lloyd George' not 'George' when referring to David Lloyd George.
But because our Archives Hub contributors are following NCA Rules when they catalogue, we get records for "Martyn Edith How, 1871-1944" or "Lewis, Cecil Day- (1904-1972) poet".
This problem is compounded because we endeavour to structure name entries with 'surname', 'forename', 'dates', etc. The more structure the better, in general, but not if you are identifying the surname as 'Lewis' and the Forename as 'Cecil Day'.
We've been thinking about name authorities, and we are part of the SNAC project to create EAC encoded name records out of EAD records (http://socialarchive.iath.virginia.edu/), but we'll end up with a substantial number of wrongly created name entries as a result of this rule. This practice also flies in the face of the general move towards data mining and pattern matching that is helping many information communities to improve the utility of their data.
For example, if we want to match up the entries for the archival creator (free text entries) and the entries of their name as an index term (structured entries), it is somewhat more difficult to match "Edith How Martyn" as the creator and "Martyn, Edith How" as the index entry. Its not impossible, but it just adds to the complexity that is already involved in trying to make names machine readable and create 'same as'
links.
I'd be really very interested to hear what others have to say about this. I feel that the rules were created when cross-referencing was commonplace, but now what is important is to have well-structured machine readable data.
cheers,
Jane.
Jane Stevenson
The Archives Hub
Mimas, The University of Manchester
Devonshire House, Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9QH
email:[log in to unmask]
tel: 0161 275 6055
website: archiveshub.ac.uk
blog: archiveshub.ac.uk/blog
twitter: twitter.com/archiveshub
Contact the list owner for assistance at [log in to unmask]
For information about joining, leaving and suspending mail (eg during a
holiday) see the list website at
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:35:35 +0000
From: Jane Stevenson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
Hi Teresa et al,
i agree that it is not always clear cut, but to my mind this is not a reason to structure a name incorrectly. Certainly we may continue to have instances where there are issues, due to the difficulty of knowing whether you have a compound surname or a single surname and two forenames. But we can reduce these as much as possible. Also, a number of cataloguers use AACR2 rules anyway, so we do have a mix at present - its not as if we have a consistent structuring of these names.
My perspective is obviously coming from an aggregator, but I think its more important to think more widely than single systems. the NCA Rules may work within individual systems, but in a global environment I just can't see how we can justify this practice. I'm surprised that the DNB follows this practice, and I'd like to know what their thinking was, but surely most names-based systems and services don't?
> I think the key thing for users is that if you search for a name it appears - whatever order of words you use
> George, David Lloyd, first Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor (1863-1945), prime minister
> Martyn, Edith How (1875-1954), suffragist and advocate of birth control
Yes, this is within a human interface, but I'm thinking of the increasing role of machine processing of data, and the potential for data analysis of various kinds.
I'm also thinking of initiatives like SNAC (http://socialarchive.iath.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=compton-burnett-i-ivy-1884-1969-cr.xml) and linking up with global hubs like VIAF (http://viaf.org/viaf/95173705/#Compton-Burnett,_I._%28Ivy%29,_1884-1969). It feels to me that it would be better to stick to structuring names in this way, in order to have the potential to work with these kinds of services.
> But revising a standard is a considerable undertaking. Previously the work was funded by 7 bodies, with considerable staff input from HMC. Where such resource would come from now is difficult to say.
A proper revision would no doubt be preferable, although maybe, if the community were to agree, revising just this part of the Rules would be possible?
I do appreciate that I have a certain perspective, and my arguments may not win out, but I guess I work so much with structured data, and trying to improve data consistency, that I do feel I want to at least raise this as an issue.
cheers,
Jane
On 10 Sep 2012, at 15:12, Doherty Teresa wrote:
> Hi
>
> I seem to remember that the issue was that hyphenated and compound surnames are rarely clear. To take another suffrage example 'Millicent Garrett Fawcett' is referred to both as Mrs Fawcett and as Millicent Garrett Fawcett. Similarly her sister 'Elizabeth Garrett Anderson' is referred to with both hyphenated and singular surnames.
>
> With many less known people where only a textual reference to the person remains it is impossible to tell if a middle name is a middle name or part of an official surname. Indeed some hyphenated first names (Anthony Paul) can be mistaken for surnames (Anthony Paul Smith). The lack of clarity is particularly true the further back in time you go.... Most archives are dealing with records from 'less well known' people, so it is a bit of a minefield.
>
> In order to gain consistency when indexing the decision was taken by the original NCA group to go with the latter element. It was hotly debated at the time and several times since. But the decision was made 'to simplify things' and get on with online indexing as quickly and consistently as possible.
>
> Interestingly the Oxford DNB sticks ultra-consistently with NCA Rules. I think the key thing for users is that if you search for a name it appears - whatever order of words you use
> George, David Lloyd, first Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor (1863-1945), prime minister
> Martyn, Edith How (1875-1954), suffragist and advocate of birth control
>
> Something else to note is that, the option to cross refer is available via ISAAR(cpf)
> 5.1.3 Parallel forms of name
> 5.1.4 Standardized forms of name according to other rules
> 5.1.5 Other forms of name
>
> So if anyone wants to use AACR2, or RDA, and cross refer this is a valid option. (Though remember AACR2 prefers not to use dates or epithets)
>
> There is also nothing to stop people using AACR2 as their main standard and then cross referring to NCA at a local level. The issue only becomes an issue when exporting data and trying to marry up index terms (e.g. Archives Hub) so there would need to be an automated process to NCA<->AACR2 provided by the Hub for those of us who may choose to remain with NCA.
>
> Re the ownership/revision: NCA is now part of ARA, so I guess it 'belongs' to the Society. There were several mutterings about the standard being revised over the years. And yes the NCA Rules are definitely worth revisiting! There are several issues which clunk along - especially when you look at Places and Corporates in any detail. And the production of new editions of ISAAR ISAD ISDF etc meand that revision is well overdue.
>
> But revising a standard is a considerable undertaking. Previously the work was funded by 7 bodies, with considerable staff input from HMC. Where such resource would come from now is difficult to say.
>
>
> Teresa
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stockting, William
> Sent: 10 September 2012 14:26
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
>
> Hi all,
>
> I whole heartedly agree with Jane here!
>
> There are perhaps some differences between the NCA rules and AACR2 that can be argued on the basis of the differences between archives and books, but I've never understood why this was the case for compound surnames. For this and other reasons, it would be good to take the NCA rules through a revision process, with convergence with other sector standards as a guiding principle perhaps. Standards in other areas have moved on and for example we might find RDA more congenial that AACR2.
> The initial question would be, who owns the NCA rules and who would therefore be responsible for their revision - it would be a significant effort!
>
> Yours,
>
> Bill
>
> S&C Cataloguing Systems and Processing Manager British Library
> Tel: (0)20 7412 7188
>
> Please think before you print!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Archivists, conservators and records managers.
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Stevenson
> Sent: 10 September 2012 14:01
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
>
> Hi there,
>
> I would like to make a plea: can we consider a revision of the NCA Rules to stop what I think is a completely foolhardy practice of creating incorrect names?
>
> I am talking about the rules governing hyphenated and compound surnames.
> For reasons that I don't fully understand, a decision was taken to enter these under the 'last entry element'. What this effectively means is entering the name wrongly.
>
> E.g. Edith How-Martyn was a suffragette. I assume anyone looking her
> up or referring to her would reference her as 'How-Martyn'.
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_How-Martyn)
>
> Similarly, we speak of 'Lloyd George' not 'George' when referring to David Lloyd George.
>
> But because our Archives Hub contributors are following NCA Rules when they catalogue, we get records for "Martyn Edith How, 1871-1944" or "Lewis, Cecil Day- (1904-1972) poet".
>
> This problem is compounded because we endeavour to structure name entries with 'surname', 'forename', 'dates', etc. The more structure the better, in general, but not if you are identifying the surname as 'Lewis' and the Forename as 'Cecil Day'.
>
> We've been thinking about name authorities, and we are part of the SNAC project to create EAC encoded name records out of EAD records (http://socialarchive.iath.virginia.edu/), but we'll end up with a substantial number of wrongly created name entries as a result of this rule. This practice also flies in the face of the general move towards data mining and pattern matching that is helping many information communities to improve the utility of their data.
>
> For example, if we want to match up the entries for the archival creator (free text entries) and the entries of their name as an index term (structured entries), it is somewhat more difficult to match "Edith How Martyn" as the creator and "Martyn, Edith How" as the index entry. Its not impossible, but it just adds to the complexity that is already involved in trying to make names machine readable and create 'same as'
> links.
>
> I'd be really very interested to hear what others have to say about this. I feel that the rules were created when cross-referencing was commonplace, but now what is important is to have well-structured machine readable data.
>
> cheers,
> Jane.
>
>
> Jane Stevenson
> The Archives Hub
> Mimas, The University of Manchester
> Devonshire House, Oxford Road
> Manchester M13 9QH
>
> email:[log in to unmask]
> tel: 0161 275 6055
> website: archiveshub.ac.uk
> blog: archiveshub.ac.uk/blog
> twitter: twitter.com/archiveshub
>
> Contact the list owner for assistance at [log in to unmask]
>
> For information about joining, leaving and suspending mail (eg during a
> holiday) see the list website at
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=archives-nra
>
> Contact the list owner for assistance at [log in to unmask]
>
> For information about joining, leaving and suspending mail (eg during a holiday) see the list website at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=archives-nra
>
> This email message has been delivered safely by Mimecast.
> For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> http://www.rcn.org.uk
>
> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Royal College of Nursing or any of its affiliates.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please return it to the sender immediately. The contents of this message may be legally privileged.
>
> Royal College of Nursing of the United Kingdom
> 20 Cavendish Square
> London W1G ORN
> Tel: +44 (0) 345 456 3996
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7647 3436
>
> Contact the list owner for assistance at [log in to unmask]
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:06:48 +0100
From: "Healy, Susan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames [UNCLASSIFIED]
I may be wrong - it is years ago and I concentrated on corporate names not personal names - but I have a vague recollection that we had extensive discussion of this point and ended up deciding to follow the practice of the new DNB. But I may be completely misremembering and apologies for confusing you all if so!
Susan Healy
Information Policy Consultant and Data Protection Officer
Tel +44 (0)20 8392 5330 ext 2305
The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Stevenson
Sent: 10 September 2012 14:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Plea regarding NCA Rules for hyphenated and compound surnames
Hi there,
I would like to make a plea: can we consider a revision of the NCA Rules to stop what I think is a completely foolhardy practice of creating incorrect names?
I am talking about the rules governing hyphenated and compound surnames. For reasons that I don't fully understand, a decision was taken to enter these under the 'last entry element'. What this effectively means is entering the name wrongly.
E.g. Edith How-Martyn was a suffragette. I assume anyone looking her up or referring to her would reference her as 'How-Martyn'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_How-Martyn)
Similarly, we speak of 'Lloyd George' not 'George' when referring to David Lloyd George.
But because our Archives Hub contributors are following NCA Rules when they catalogue, we get records for "Martyn Edith How, 1871-1944" or "Lewis, Cecil Day- (1904-1972) poet".
This problem is compounded because we endeavour to structure name entries with 'surname', 'forename', 'dates', etc. The more structure the better, in general, but not if you are identifying the surname as 'Lewis' and the Forename as 'Cecil Day'.
We've been thinking about name authorities, and we are part of the SNAC project to create EAC encoded name records out of EAD records (http://socialarchive.iath.virginia.edu/), but we'll end up with a substantial number of wrongly created name entries as a result of this rule. This practice also flies in the face of the general move towards data mining and pattern matching that is helping many information communities to improve the utility of their data.
For example, if we want to match up the entries for the archival creator (free text entries) and the entries of their name as an index term (structured entries), it is somewhat more difficult to match "Edith How Martyn" as the creator and "Martyn, Edith How" as the index entry. Its not impossible, but it just adds to the complexity that is already involved in trying to make names machine readable and create 'same as' links.
I'd be really very interested to hear what others have to say about this. I feel that the rules were created when cross-referencing was commonplace, but now what is important is to have well-structured machine readable data.
cheers,
Jane.
Jane Stevenson
The Archives Hub
Mimas, The University of Manchester
Devonshire House, Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9QH
email:[log in to unmask]
tel: 0161 275 6055
website: archiveshub.ac.uk
blog: archiveshub.ac.uk/blog
twitter: twitter.com/archiveshub
Contact the list owner for assistance at [log in to unmask]
For information about joining, leaving and suspending mail (eg during a holiday) see the list website at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=archives-nra
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