Julia, your mystery bone is not the thyrohyoid of a horse, or the
thyrohyoid of any other large mammal. The thyrohyoid bone is not bilobate
on either end. Did you look at a bear as I suggested before? Cheers -- Dr.
Deb
> Hello Ruth and other zooarchers,
>
> Just to clarify, as I feel I have now confused everyone!
>
> This is the bone I am trying to id. that I now believe is the thyrohyiod
> of a large mammal, probably cattle, if anyone can confirm, that would be
> great.
>
> http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/photo/albums/mystery-bone-from-enf129454
>
>
>
>
> This is a photo of a horse hyoid that I found on the internet and included
> on my email to let people know what I was talking about. Originally I said
> it was a cattle hyoid as that was what I typed into my search, as several
> people have rightly pointed out this photo is in fact horse, not cattle.
>
> http://www.promiselandranch.net/Images%20and%20Buttons/DSCN6845.JPG
>
>
> Many thanks again to all those who have helped me out on this, I promise
> to stop going on about it soon!
>
> Ruth - many thanks for the offer of photos, but after the end of next week
> I will be away from work for six months so will be unlikely to receive
> them.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Julia
>
>
>
>
> Julia Cussans
> Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>
> Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
> Archaeological Solutions
> 98 - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court
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>
>
>
> T: 01992 558 170
>
>
>
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>
> The information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments is
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> originating address.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ruth Carden
> To: Julia Cussans
> Cc: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>
>
> Hi Julia/Tony et al.
>
> I would agree with Tony, these are horse hyoids - I have recently
> finishing preparing a full horse skeleton and these bones you provide
> Julia are similar to the horse I have (male adult horse, 30yrs old, just
> under 16hands height).
>
> Best wishes - Ruth
>
> PS - I don't have photos to hand, but could supply some in about 2 weeks
> or so.
>
>
>
> On 30 August 2012 13:44, Julia Cussans <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello Tony,
>
> If you have the time and opportunity to take photos then I would be
> certainly interested to see them, but please don't go to any special
> effort. Any later than the middle of next week and I suspect your
> efforts will be in vain as I finish work a week tomorrow before taking
> 6 month maternity leave. It may be quicker and easier for you to have
> a quick look at your reference specimen next to my photos and let me
> know what you think, but please dont put yourself out.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Julia
>
>
>
>
> Julia Cussans
> Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>
> Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS Archaeological
> Solutions
> 98 - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court
> Hertford Eastern Way
> Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds
> SG14 1AB Suffolk
> IP32 7AJ
>
>
>
> T: 01992 558 170
>
>
>
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>
> The information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments
> is confidential information intended only for the use of individuals
> or entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
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> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately by e-mail at the originating address.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gouldwell, Anthony J.
> To: 'Julia Cussans' ; [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:49 AM
> Subject: RE: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>
>
> Julia,
>
>
>
> Horse!
>
>
>
> I may not be able to get pictures of our ref. material organised
> before the middle of next week, but can if you need them.
>
>
>
> Tony.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julia Cussans
> Sent: 30 August 2012 09:23
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>
>
>
> Hello All again,
>
>
>
> It seems I may have to back track a little. Having looked at the
> photos that Deb sent to me it seems certain that my bone is not a
> bird phalanx.
>
>
>
> I must also apologise to those of you who suggested hyoid, that I
> dismissed in my previous email. I was only familiar with part of the
> hyoid apparatus - the stylohyoid, which being the largest part is
> the bit that I guess most people (certainly myself) are familiar
> with. Having found a single photograph of a full set of cattle hyoid
> bones on the internet (see link below) I now think my bone may be a
> thyrohyoid (the shorter pair of bones in the image). Unfortunately
> there is only the one view and no scale on this photo. Does anyone
> have these bones in their reference collection that they could
> compare my photos with or send pictures of? Obviously the bone may
> not be cattle, but some sort of large mammal appears most likely.
>
>
>
> http://www.promiselandranch.net/Images%20and%20Buttons/DSCN6845.JPG
>
>
>
>
>
> Many thanks for all your help again.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Julia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Julia Cussans Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology) Visit our new
> Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS Archaeological Solutions 98
> - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court Hertford Eastern Way
> Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds SG14 1AB Suffolk IP32 7AJ T: 01992 558
> 170 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail The
> information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments is
> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals or
> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
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> prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please
> notify us immediately by e-mail at the originating address.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> To: "Julia Cussans" <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Cc: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:51 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>
>
>
> > Dear Julia: I have also been going around on a difficult phalanx
> I.D.
> > also, which has caused me to examine all the possibilities you've
> > mentioned with the help of the excellent comparative osteological
> > collections at the University of Kansas. On this basis, I can tell
> you
> > that:
> >
> > (1) The bone is certainly not a phalanx from a bird's wing. The
> only
> > separate phalanx that any bird has in its wing, i.e. distal to the
> > carpometacarpus, is quite differently shaped. By private EMail I
> will in a
> > moment sent you an image of the 1st phalanx from the wing of a
> crane, Grus
> > grus -- could also send you a swan, they both being large birds;
> and then
> > you shall compare them yourself and see.
> >
> > (2) The bone is also not a phalanx from the leg of a bird. Almost
> all
> > birds, even those that walk flat-footed such as swans or geese,
> have
> > phalanges that curve fairly strongly downward. Of course eagles
> and
> > gyrfalcons and big vultures and buzzards that have talons have
> phalanges
> > that are quite markedly bowed.
> >
> > (3) The bone might be human, but before I'd want to bet my hat on
> that,
> > I'd want to sit down directly with a human skeleton. Of particular
> note is
> > the shallowly bifacial proximal articular surface, and the rather
> > asymmetrical distal articulation, i.e. the lobes which form the
> medial vs.
> > lateral parts of the distal articulation are of rather different
> size.
> > This leads me to....
> >
> > (4) The possibility that this is the phalanx of a bear. Bear paws
> > notorously look like human hands. The asymmetry of the distal
> articulation
> > of your specimen tells me that the digits were angled outward,
> i.e.
> > laterally, relative to an axis which would bisect the radius. So
> I'd sure
> > have a look-see at a bear.
> >
> > Look for my EMail in a few moments, Julia, and also my
> sympathies....my
> > mystery phalanx might embarassingly turn out to be a 2nd phalanx
> from a
> > piglet, but then again, it might also be an African tortoise. We
> have yet
> > to see! Cheers (ain't zooarch fun) -- Deb Bennett
> >
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> Many thanks to all those who replied again. I am fairly happy now
> that the
> >> bone is the distal phalanx from the wing of a (very) large bird.
> >>
> >> The only large bird reference I have immediately available to me
> is a
> >> greylag goose. While the distal phalanx of this specimen is the
> best match
> >> I have found for the bone, the species is clearly not correct,
> the mystery
> >> bone is a little longer and much more robust. If anyone has any
> further
> >> suggestions I would be grateful to hear them.
> >>
> >> However in the mean time I am happy that it is fairly certainly
> not human,
> >> which was my main concern at this stage.
> >>
> >> Many thanks again for all your help.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Julia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Julia Cussans
> >> Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
> >>
> >> Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
> Archaeological
> >> Solutions
> >> 98 - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court
> >> Hertford Eastern Way
> >> Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds
> >> SG14 1AB Suffolk
> >> IP32 7AJ
> >>
> >>
> >> T: 01992 558 170
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> >>
> >> The information contained in this e-mail message and any
> attachments is
> >> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals
> or
> >> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended
> >> recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or
> >> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received
> >> this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
> e-mail at the
> >> originating address.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: J.H. Yvinec
> >> To: 'Julia Cussans' ; [log in to unmask]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:07 PM
> >> Subject: RE: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello
> >>
> >> All the bones have this "taphonomic" appearance ? I ask this
> because lot
> >> of human bones have it. And my first think was human Ph.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> JHY
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> J.H. Yvinec
> >> Ingénieur de recherche INRAP,
> >> Laboratoire d'archéozoologie de Compiègne,
> >> UMR 7209 du CNRS, Archéozoologie, Archéobotanique : Sociétés,
> Pratiques
> >> et Environnements
> >> CRAVO, 21 rue des Cordeliers 60200 Compiègne, France,
> >> tel : 33 (0)3 44 23 28 10
> >> <http://www.archeozoo.org/>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> De : Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites
> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de Julia Cussans
> >> Envoyé : mercredi 29 août 2012 13:32
> >> À : [log in to unmask]
> >> Objet : Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello again,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Many thanks to those of you who have sent suggestions as to
> what my
> >> mystery bone might be, it is proving to be somewhat of a
> conundrum!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A couple of people have suggested that this might be human
> metapodial or
> >> phalange. This was my first thought but having had a look through
> the
> >> reference material available to me and several photos on the
> internet I
> >> could not find a match. Is there anyone out there who is more
> familiar
> >> with human bones who could perhaps confirm or refute this
> possibility?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Another possible suggestion is that it may be the phalange of a
> large
> >> bird, again if anyone has any further comments on this I would be
> >> interested to know.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hyoid has also been suggested but I think given that it appears
> to have
> >> articular ends this is unlikely.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Having had a look through some very poorly reproduced drawings
> of wolf
> >> foot bones I had thought that 1st metatarsal may have been a
> >> possibility, possibly of a large dog or wolf - again if anyone
> has
> >> anyone has reference material they can compare my photos with and
> offer
> >> an opinion I would be most grateful.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The link to the photos is still present in the email below.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Many thanks,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Julia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Julia Cussans
> >> Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
> >>
> >> Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
> >>
> >> Archaeological Solutions
> >>
> >>
> >> 98 - 100 Fore Street
> >> 6 Brunel Business Court
> >>
> >>
> >> Hertford
> >> Eastern Way
> >>
> >>
> >> Hertfordshire
> >> Bury St Edmunds
> >>
> >>
> >> SG14 1AB
> >> Suffolk
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> IP32 7AJ
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> T: 01992 558 170
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> >>
> >> The information contained in this e-mail message and any
> attachments is
> >> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals
> or
> >> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended
> >> recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution
> >> or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
> have
> >> received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately by
> >> e-mail at the originating address.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>
> >> From: Julia Cussans
> >>
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:34 AM
> >>
> >> Subject: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello All,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Can anyone help me identify this bone? I think it should be
> some sort
> >> of metapodial, but that is as far as I have got. I have uploaded
> some
> >> photos onto zoobook. All suggestions welcome.
> >>
> >>
> >> http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/photo/albums/mystery-bone-from-enf129454
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Many thanks,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Julia
> >>
> >>
> >> Julia Cussans
> >> Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
> >>
> >> Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
> >>
> >> Archaeological Solutions
> >>
> >>
> >> 98 - 100 Fore Street
> >> 6 Brunel Business Court
> >>
> >>
> >> Hertford
> >> Eastern Way
> >>
> >>
> >> Hertfordshire
> >> Bury St Edmunds
> >>
> >>
> >> SG14 1AB
> >> Suffolk
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> IP32 7AJ
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> T: 01992 558 170
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> >>
> >> The information contained in this e-mail message and any
> attachments
> >> is confidential information intended only for the use of
> individuals
> >> or entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> >> intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination,
> >> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
> prohibited.
> >> If you have received this communication in error, please notify
> us
> >> immediately by e-mail at the originating address.
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> >> No virus found in this message.
> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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> Date:
> >> 08/28/12
> >>
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> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5231 - Release
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> >> 08/28/12
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
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>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>
>
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5234 - Release Date:
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