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ZOOARCH  August 2012

ZOOARCH August 2012

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Subject:

Re: Help with bone id please

From:

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Reply-To:

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Date:

Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:33:34 -0600

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Julia, your mystery bone is not the thyrohyoid of a horse, or the
thyrohyoid of any other large mammal. The thyrohyoid bone is not bilobate
on either end. Did you look at a bear as I suggested before? Cheers -- Dr.
Deb

> Hello Ruth and other zooarchers,
>
> Just to clarify, as I feel I have now confused everyone!
>
> This is the bone I am trying to id. that I now believe is the thyrohyiod
> of a large mammal, probably cattle, if anyone can confirm, that would be
> great.
>
> http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/photo/albums/mystery-bone-from-enf129454
>
>
>
>
> This is a photo of a horse hyoid that I found on the internet and included
> on my email to let people know what I was talking about. Originally I said
> it was a cattle hyoid as that was what I typed into my search, as several
> people have rightly pointed out this photo is in fact horse, not cattle.
>
> http://www.promiselandranch.net/Images%20and%20Buttons/DSCN6845.JPG
>
>
> Many thanks again to all those who have helped me out on this, I promise
> to stop going on about it soon!
>
> Ruth - many thanks for the offer of photos, but after the end of next week
> I will be away from work for six months so will be unlikely to receive
> them.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Julia
>
>
>
>
> Julia Cussans
> Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>
> Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
>       Archaeological Solutions
>       98 - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court
>       Hertford Eastern Way
>       Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds
>       SG14 1AB Suffolk
>      IP32 7AJ
>
>
>
> T: 01992 558 170
>
>
>
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>
> The information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments is
> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals or
> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received
> this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at the
> originating address.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Ruth Carden
>   To: Julia Cussans
>   Cc: [log in to unmask]
>   Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:52 PM
>   Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>
>
>   Hi Julia/Tony et al.
>
>   I would agree with Tony, these are horse hyoids - I have recently
> finishing preparing a full horse skeleton and these bones you provide
> Julia are similar to the horse I have (male adult horse, 30yrs old, just
> under 16hands height).
>
>   Best wishes - Ruth
>
>   PS - I don't have photos to hand, but could supply some in about 2 weeks
> or so.
>
>
>
>   On 30 August 2012 13:44, Julia Cussans <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>     Hello Tony,
>
>     If you have the time and opportunity to take photos then I would be
> certainly interested to see them, but please don't go to any special
> effort. Any later than the middle of next week and I suspect your
> efforts will be in vain as I finish work a week tomorrow before taking
> 6 month maternity leave. It may be quicker and easier for you to have
> a quick look at your reference specimen next to my photos and let me
> know what you think, but please dont put yourself out.
>
>     Many thanks,
>
>     Julia
>
>
>
>
>     Julia Cussans
>     Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>
>     Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS Archaeological
> Solutions
>           98 - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court
>           Hertford Eastern Way
>           Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds
>           SG14 1AB Suffolk
>          IP32 7AJ
>
>
>
>     T: 01992 558 170
>
>
>
>
>     Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>
>     The information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments
> is confidential information intended only for the use of individuals
> or entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately by e-mail at the originating address.
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: Gouldwell, Anthony J.
>       To: 'Julia Cussans' ; [log in to unmask]
>       Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:49 AM
>       Subject: RE: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>
>
>       Julia,
>
>
>
>       Horse!
>
>
>
>       I may not be able to get pictures of our ref. material organised
> before the middle of next week, but can if you need them.
>
>
>
>       Tony.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       From: Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julia Cussans
>       Sent: 30 August 2012 09:23
>       To: [log in to unmask]
>       Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>
>
>
>       Hello All again,
>
>
>
>       It seems I may have to back track a little. Having looked at the
> photos that Deb sent to me it seems certain that my bone is not a
> bird phalanx.
>
>
>
>       I must also apologise to those of you who suggested hyoid, that I
> dismissed in my previous email. I was only familiar with part of the
> hyoid apparatus - the stylohyoid, which being the largest part is
> the bit that I guess most people (certainly myself) are familiar
> with. Having found a single photograph of a full set of cattle hyoid
> bones on the internet (see link below) I now think my bone may be a
> thyrohyoid (the shorter pair of bones in the image). Unfortunately
> there is only the one view and no scale on this photo. Does anyone
> have these bones in their reference collection that they could
> compare my photos with or send pictures of? Obviously the bone may
> not be cattle, but some sort of large mammal appears most likely.
>
>
>
>       http://www.promiselandranch.net/Images%20and%20Buttons/DSCN6845.JPG
>
>
>
>
>
>       Many thanks for all your help again.
>
>
>
>       Best wishes,
>
>
>
>       Julia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       Julia Cussans Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology) Visit our new
> Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS Archaeological Solutions 98
> - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court Hertford Eastern Way
> Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds SG14 1AB Suffolk IP32 7AJ T: 01992 558
> 170 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail The
> information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments is
> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals or
> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please
> notify us immediately by e-mail at the originating address.
>
>       ----- Original Message -----
>
>       From: <[log in to unmask]>
>
>       To: "Julia Cussans" <[log in to unmask]>
>
>       Cc: <[log in to unmask]>
>
>       Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:51 PM
>
>       Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>
>
>
>       > Dear Julia: I have also been going around on a difficult phalanx
> I.D.
>       > also, which has caused me to examine all the possibilities you've
>       > mentioned with the help of the excellent comparative osteological
>       > collections at the University of Kansas. On this basis, I can tell
> you
>       > that:
>       >
>       > (1) The bone is certainly not a phalanx from a bird's wing. The
> only
>       > separate phalanx that any bird has in its wing, i.e. distal to the
>       > carpometacarpus, is quite differently shaped. By private EMail I
> will in a
>       > moment sent you an image of the 1st phalanx from the wing of a
> crane, Grus
>       > grus -- could also send you a swan, they both being large birds;
> and then
>       > you shall compare them yourself and see.
>       >
>       > (2) The bone is also not a phalanx from the leg of a bird. Almost
> all
>       > birds, even those that walk flat-footed such as swans or geese,
> have
>       > phalanges that curve fairly strongly downward. Of course eagles
> and
>       > gyrfalcons and big vultures and buzzards that have talons have
> phalanges
>       > that are quite markedly bowed.
>       >
>       > (3) The bone might be human, but before I'd want to bet my hat on
> that,
>       > I'd want to sit down directly with a human skeleton. Of particular
> note is
>       > the shallowly bifacial proximal articular surface, and the rather
>       > asymmetrical distal articulation, i.e. the lobes which form the
> medial vs.
>       > lateral parts of the distal articulation are of rather different
> size.
>       > This leads me to....
>       >
>       > (4) The possibility that this is the phalanx of a bear. Bear paws
>       > notorously look like human hands. The asymmetry of the distal
> articulation
>       > of your specimen tells me that the digits were angled outward,
> i.e.
>       > laterally, relative to an axis which would bisect the radius. So
> I'd sure
>       > have a look-see at a bear.
>       >
>       > Look for my EMail in a few moments, Julia, and also my
> sympathies....my
>       > mystery phalanx might embarassingly turn out to be a 2nd phalanx
> from a
>       > piglet, but then again, it might also be an African tortoise. We
> have yet
>       > to see! Cheers (ain't zooarch fun) -- Deb Bennett
>       >
>       >> Dear all,
>       >>
>       >> Many thanks to all those who replied again. I am fairly happy now
> that the
>       >> bone is the distal phalanx from the wing of a (very) large bird.
>       >>
>       >> The only large bird reference I have immediately available to me
> is a
>       >> greylag goose. While the distal phalanx of this specimen is the
> best match
>       >> I have found for the bone, the species is clearly not correct,
> the mystery
>       >> bone is a little longer and much more robust. If anyone has any
> further
>       >> suggestions I would be grateful to hear them.
>       >>
>       >> However in the mean time I am happy that it is fairly certainly
> not human,
>       >> which was my main concern at this stage.
>       >>
>       >> Many thanks again for all your help.
>       >>
>       >> Best wishes,
>       >>
>       >> Julia
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >> Julia Cussans
>       >> Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>       >>
>       >> Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
> Archaeological
>       >> Solutions
>       >>       98 - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court
>       >>       Hertford Eastern Way
>       >>       Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds
>       >>       SG14 1AB Suffolk
>       >>      IP32 7AJ
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>    T: 01992 558 170
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>       >>
>       >> The information contained in this e-mail message and any
> attachments is
>       >> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals
> or
>       >> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended
>       >> recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or
>       >> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received
>       >> this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
> e-mail at the
>       >> originating address.
>       >>   ----- Original Message -----
>       >>   From: J.H. Yvinec
>       >>   To: 'Julia Cussans' ; [log in to unmask]
>       >>   Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:07 PM
>       >>   Subject: RE: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Hello
>       >>
>       >>   All the bones have this "taphonomic" appearance ? I ask this
> because lot
>       >> of human bones have it. And my first think was human Ph.
>       >>
>       >>   Cheers
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   JHY
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   J.H. Yvinec
>       >>   Ingénieur de recherche INRAP,
>       >>   Laboratoire d'archéozoologie de Compiègne,
>       >>   UMR 7209 du CNRS, Archéozoologie, Archéobotanique : Sociétés,
> Pratiques
>       >> et Environnements
>       >>   CRAVO, 21 rue des Cordeliers 60200 Compiègne, France,
>       >>   tel : 33 (0)3 44 23 28 10
>       >>   <http://www.archeozoo.org/>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>       >>
>       >>   De : Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites
>       >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de Julia Cussans
>       >>   Envoyé : mercredi 29 août 2012 13:32
>       >>   À : [log in to unmask]
>       >>   Objet : Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Hello again,
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Many thanks to those of you who have sent suggestions as to
> what my
>       >> mystery bone might be, it is proving to be somewhat of a
> conundrum!
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   A couple of people have suggested that this might be human
> metapodial or
>       >> phalange. This was my first thought but having had a look through
> the
>       >> reference material available to me and several photos on the
> internet I
>       >> could not find a match. Is there anyone out there who is more
> familiar
>       >> with human bones who could perhaps confirm or refute this
> possibility?
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Another possible suggestion is that it may be the phalange of a
> large
>       >> bird, again if anyone has any further comments on this I would be
>       >> interested to know.
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Hyoid has also been suggested but I think given that it appears
> to have
>       >> articular ends this is unlikely.
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Having had a look through some very poorly reproduced drawings
> of wolf
>       >> foot bones I had thought that 1st metatarsal may have been a
>       >> possibility, possibly of a large dog or wolf - again if anyone
> has
>       >> anyone has reference material they can compare my photos with and
> offer
>       >> an opinion I would be most grateful.
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   The link to the photos is still present in the email below.
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Many thanks,
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Julia
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Julia Cussans
>       >>   Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>       >>
>       >>   Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
>       >>
>       >>         Archaeological Solutions
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>         98 - 100 Fore Street
>       >>        6 Brunel Business Court
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>         Hertford
>       >>        Eastern Way
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>         Hertfordshire
>       >>        Bury St Edmunds
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>         SG14 1AB
>       >>        Suffolk
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>        IP32 7AJ
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   T: 01992 558 170
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>   Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>       >>
>       >>   The information contained in this e-mail message and any
> attachments is
>       >> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals
> or
>       >> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended
>       >> recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution
>       >> or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
> have
>       >> received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately by
>       >> e-mail at the originating address.
>       >>
>       >>     ----- Original Message -----
>       >>
>       >>     From: Julia Cussans
>       >>
>       >>     To: [log in to unmask]
>       >>
>       >>     Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:34 AM
>       >>
>       >>     Subject: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>     Hello All,
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>     Can anyone help me identify this bone? I think it should be
> some sort
>       >> of metapodial, but that is as far as I have got. I have uploaded
> some
>       >> photos onto zoobook. All suggestions welcome.
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>     http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/photo/albums/mystery-bone-from-enf129454
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>     Many thanks,
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>     Julia
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>     Julia Cussans
>       >>     Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>       >>
>       >>     Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
>       >>
>       >>           Archaeological Solutions
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>           98 - 100 Fore Street
>       >>          6 Brunel Business Court
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>           Hertford
>       >>          Eastern Way
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>           Hertfordshire
>       >>          Bury St Edmunds
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>           SG14 1AB
>       >>          Suffolk
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>          IP32 7AJ
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>     T: 01992 558 170
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>     Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>       >>
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> attachments
>       >> is confidential information intended only for the use of
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>       >> intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
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> prohibited.
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> us
>       >> immediately by e-mail at the originating address.
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>       >>     Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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