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MEDIEVAL-RELIGION  May 2012

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION May 2012

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Subject:

Re: Feasts and Saints of the Day: May 3

From:

Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 May 2012 12:15:28 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

> On 5/5/2012 9:54 AM, Genevra Kornbluth wrote:

> The panels

http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/HarrachDipt2.jpg

>are each 29 cm high (11.4"). The figures are generally identified as Peter
and Paul, but really, it could go either way.

yes, but it would seem that either way is equally problematical.

>They are not distinguished physiognomically. Neither is balding or bearded,
and a beard was as standard for Andrew as it was for Peter.


i don't know from Andrew, but i believe that Pete is *invariably* depicted
(from E.C. times) sporting white, tight, curly locks --in both hair and
beard.

which, as you say, fits neither of these figures.

i recall seeing the unusual "chrysanthemum" motif halo of the Paul/Andy figure
in a few Carolingian gospel "author portraits" --but those seem to have been a
convention of the artist (or artifact of the "model"), rather than any sort of
attribute which might be used to identify the figure so adorned:

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/htdocs/bytype/manuscripts/survey/0001/195.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vj9K9bC36XY/Sfh7_9w0nbI/AAAAAAAAAD8/wuTL1kDC5Nc/s400/Iluminura+Ada-Gruppe+Caroli.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Codexaureus_25.jpg/300px-Codexaureus_25.jpg

> The object held by Paul/Andrew is normally identified as a labarum
(not standard iconography for any apostle that I know of!).

i certainly cannot recall seeing such an object before --in any context.

and, as far as i am aware (not very far, some might say), the "crux staff"
(what's that called?) isn't particularly associated with Pete --though it may
be with Paul.

here are Pete (with the key and a church) & [presumably] Paul (with the "crux
staff") inside Etampes --perhaps originally from a jubé of c. 1160(?) (the
heads are both 19thc.):

http://www.ariadne.org/cc/etampes/interior/intcolfigs-pre1921.jpg

http://www.ariadne.org/cc/etampes/interior/etpau1.jpg

the staff seems to be skewering a nasty beastie below

http://www.ariadne.org/cc/etampes/interior/etpau3.jpg


From: Genevra Kornbluth <[log in to unmask]>

> Wikipedia (source of all things reliable) says that the vexillum started
as a papal thing during the Investiture Controversy,

this would be c. 1080s?

>long after the ivories

http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/HarrachDipt2.jpg

>were made. Is this right?

c. 1080 looks a bit more reasonable, to me, than, say, 8th or 9th c. --but i
don't know the literature on these guys at all.

i'm having a hard time putting this/these object(s) in early 8th c. Spain (or
anywhere else).

once again, if that is the case, we have lost a *lot* of intermediate
exemplars.


btw, do you happen to know, is this a diptych which was originally hinged
together (no trace of that, that i can see)?

are the versos hollowed out, in order to hold a wax surface for writing on?

> On 05/05/2012 12:32 PM, Robert Kraft wrote:

> When I checked the images, after CC's post, I was interested to find
the figure on the left holding a book (a codex, it seems; or a tablet), since
some earlier depictions of Philip on this thread show him holding some sort of
roll (not clear whether one read horizontally or vertically; is it because
Philip interprets Isaiah to the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts?). I don't recall
Peter being associated with book holding in the artistic conventions, so I
wonder if maybe CC is onto something here.


if he is, he wishes to assure you, Bob, and all here present, that it is
purely an accident.

but, no, Pete with a book (after all what did he write?) is not known to me
(again, that don't mean much) --early on, he may have been accompanied by a
(thrice-crowing) cock, but in the high M.A., he was almost invariably holding
a key or keys and/or with a miniature church (as in the Etampes example above,
where he has his hands full with both).

c


>On 5/3/2012 2:19 PM, Christopher Crockett wrote:

>http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/HarrachDipt2.jpg

>but surely the two figures here are not Pete & Paulie, but Phil and
Andy? (where's Pete's beard and, what, did he get a hair transplant?)...and
what is that attribute the figure on the right
is holding? 
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