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Schema.org Alignment Task Group telecon - 2012-05-14 - report


Thomas Baker <[log in to unmask]>


DCMI Architecture Forum <[log in to unmask]>


Mon, 28 May 2012 00:51:07 -0400





text/plain (444 lines)

 Schema.org Alignment Task Group telecon - 2012-05-14 - report
 This report:    http://wiki.dublincore.org/index.php/Schema.org_Alignment/Telecon_20120514_Report
 Agenda:         http://wiki.dublincore.org/index.php/Schema.org_Alignment/Telecon_20120514
 Chair:          Tom
 Date:           Monday, 2012-05-14
 Time:           11:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time
 Mailing list:   http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/dc-architecture
 Github:         https://github.com/dcmi/schema.org
 Attended:       Tom, Antoine, Stuart, Karen, Dan, Bernard, Kirsten, Corey, Gregg Kellogg
 IRC:            Jon, Gordon
 Documenting and publishing mappings
      Antoine has started work on an RDFa representation [1] of the 
      mappings in [2].  We will discuss this approach and address
      Kirsten's question [3,4] of how best we should incorporate new
      mappings into the set of mappings under consideration.
      Off-list, Dan has suggested that we approach mappings in the context of 
      usage patterns (application profiles).  He points out that with better 
      online documentation of both DCMI Metadata Terms and Schema.org, it should
      not be necessary to compile wiki pages such as [2] by hand and suggests that
      publication of mappings could therefore be simplified.
      [1] https://github.com/dcmi/schema.org/blob/master/mappings.html
      [2] http://wiki.dublincore.org/index.php/Schema.org_Alignment/Mappings_Details
      [3] https://github.com/dcmi/schema.org/issues/3
      [4] https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A2=ind1202&L=dc-architecture&F=&S=&P=14738

 Tom: Question about how to represent the mappings. Affects whole workflow.
 Need to represent while working, then publish.

 Antoine: http://dcmi.github.com/schema.org/mappings.html

 Corey: FYI, the page Antoine references is also directly editable in github:
 https://github.com/dcmi/schema.org/blob/master/mappings.html. It uses github "pages"...

 Tom: mappings.html is hand-edited. Antoine saved wiki page as HTML and edited.
 Time-consuming, but not much more than creating human-readable documentation.

 Bernard: Starting from requirement for HTML version, there's not much added
 cost for hand-editing a page like this.

 Tom: Need for both human- & machine-readable versions.  RDFa approach provides
 single document for editing.  Re: requirements: one early requirement - have
 human and machine-readable versions. Some people in this call would be happy
 with Turtle, but others want HTML. For handling one requirement on
 human-readable version.  
 Antoin: Github issue tracking allows reference to part of a document.  Started
 to refer to changes by referring to line in mapping file (RDF version).
 This has problem that line numbers change when editing.  Ability to target one
 mapping without referring to line numbers in text. When we started to use
 github for issue tracking, uses line numbers. We started to refer to changes
 in mapping file. Problem: if you change the mapping files, line numbers
 change. RDFa allows to use HTML to refer to mappings.  Stable pointer to
 specific mapping.

 Jon: Just an FYI... The referenced line number in GitHub issues won't change
 if you reference a line number in a specific commit.

      Corey: +1 to referencing specific commits

 Jon: This looks like a good approach, but we still have the issue of
 referencing a specific mapping statement in issues and comments don't we?

 Antoine: We could have http://dcmi.github.com/schema.org/mappings.html#schema:Organization

       Jon: Ah. Ok
 Gregg: We have a way of generating RDFa from Turtle using
 templates/stylesheets.  The problem is that if you want to represent
 human-readable information other than mapping triples, you have to do it in
 static way, or represent it in RDF (so that the templates can generate the
 appropriate HTML).

    Antoine: Thanks a lot for the input, Gregg!
    Jon: Gkellog++

 Corey: Gregg, is the email you referred to something you sent offline? I'm not
 finding anything on any of my lists.

 Gregg: The perm link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa/2012May/0025.html

 Jon: The Open Metadata Registry has a vocabulary for status

    Karen: +1, and maybe use the OMR vocab, or extend it
    Antoine: +1 (also for re-using the OMR voc!)
    Gordon: ++1 for adding definitions to the OMR vocab!
 Gregg: If I can be of any help with the mapping document, let me know.

 Jon: Is there a possibility to generate the HTML/RDFa from turtle using a script?

 Corey: Gregg's done the tweaking of the DCMI XSLT to generate HTML with
 Embedded RDFa output. # gkellogg++

 Gregg: Glad to help. Off now.

 Issue tracking
     We decided to use the Github issue tracker [6] but its use has not yet
     gained traction.
     Dan proposes that we do our work, at least in part, in the W3C Web Schemas
     Task Force [1,2].  Specifically, we could continue to use the dc-architecture
     mailing list, but track our issues on the Web Schemas issue tracker [3] (defining
     DC as a "product" with its own thread [4]) and occasionally report on progress to the 
     public-vocabs mailing list [5].
     [1] http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas
     [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/interest/webschema.html
     [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/webschema/track/
     [4] http://www.w3.org/2011/webschema/track/products
     [5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/
     [6] http://wiki.dublincore.org/index.php/Schema.org_Alignment/GithubIssueTracker

 Dan: see http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas ... trackers mentioned.

 Corey: Danbri suggests that we engage the W3C Web Schema's task force efforts.

 Antoine: On issue tracking in Github: well, now we can use whatever anchor we
 want (and not only line numbers) we'd be in a better situation!  But of course
 I've got no objection to W3C issue tracker.

 [Discussion of porting issues over into w3c issue tracker.]

 Dan: The way the w3c group is framed, is a group within which 'schema.org as a
 project' listens and participates.

 Corey: Link to the feedback to schema.org set of issues:

 Dan: We didn't make a working group to standardize Schema.org. Proprietary.
 Web Schemas is not a standardization body for Schema.org, but way to collect
 feedback. We use it for TODOs for FOAF. Would be happy if we could use for DC
 too.  Various semantic Web vocabularies - existence of schema.org has forced
 the issue of better communication between vocabularies.

 Corey: I always thought the Issues tracker in W3C had W3C membership as a
 barrier. Need authentication, but as non-W3C affiliate, would this be a

 Dan: public w3c account should enable us to do this.  I believe you can get a
 public W3C account that will let you log in - see link. Public account for
 wiki, too. Believe the issue tracker understands people being "in the group"?

     Corey: danbri, thanks. just applied for a w3c public account.

 Jon: Part of the question is: Is the requirement for a W3C login a higher bar
 for participation than a GitHub login?  Is there enough additional value in
 the W3C issue tracker for the broader population of participants to change
 trackers and wikis at this point?

 Karen: As a non-programmer, github is more foreign to me than the w3c site.

 Dan: Hmm I've had same w3c account since 1997, let me make a new one and see
 how the tools work as a newcomer!

 First show of hands re: using W3C issue tracker and reporting to public-vocabs

    danbri:        +1
    kcoylenet:     +1
    bvatant:       +1
    chrpr:         +1 to using w3c issue tracker. -1 to moving discussion off dc-architecture.
    danbri:        dc-arch is fine for mail
    jonphipps:     -1
    antoine__:     +0. I'm ok with W3C issue tracker but I'm a bit reluctant to have only the issue tracking there...
    chrpr:         +1 to reporting to public_vocabs list. Call minutes, agendas, & major milestones.
         Antoine: corey++

 Jon: Like you said it's a matter of personal comfort

 Kirsten: Instructions for non-Members (http://www.w3.org/2004/08/invexp.html)
 for me seems to be more a barrier than joining github

    StuartSutton:          +1

 Dan: Jon, can you live w/ the w3c option?  I'm not promising w3c tools will be
 all happyness and joy, ... but it seems the right community to connect to.  So
 ... this is scoped to 'DC's mappings w.r.t. schema.org', right?  Not all of
 DC's arch work forever.

 Jon: GitHub's markdown syntax in the issues automatically hyperlinks
 GitHub-related references as well.

 Dan: I'm fine w/ it staying in DC's github; it's not a major issue.

 Jon: But that's a minor technical matter.

 Corey: To put my concern into the record: requiring github login for
 contributing to mappings _and_ w3c login for contributing to issue discussion
 provides double barrier to login.

 Karen: It's awkward, but if it works for most I'm not opposed.

 Antoine: @Dan: how easy would it be for us to use https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/summary ?

 Corey: Additionally, folks who land on the github mappings would then have to
 go to a separate site to see the corresponding discussions.

 Dan: No strong opinion either, all tools are annoying unless you use them daily
    Corey: +1 all_tools_are_annoying.  (at least I now know how to get more
    involved in W3C with a public account)

 Stuart: I have no strong opinion.

 RESOLVED: Continue using Github for issue tracking.

 Source of mappings: Schema.org or Rdfs.org?
     Bernard raised this as Issue 9: schemaorg type-properties and rdfs:domain.
     On our telecon of 5 April, resolved to use rdfs.org as the basis of our
     mappings [2].  However, Dan Brickley (of Schema.org) and Michael
     Hausenblas (of Rdfs.org) _both_ think this is the wrong decision.  We
     should therefore reconsider on Monday's call.  Dan will be on the call to
     discuss his reasons.
     [1] https://github.com/dcmi/schema.org/issues/9
     [2] http://wiki.dublincore.org/index.php/Schema.org_Alignment/Telecon_20120405_Report
 --  From the 2012-04-05 agenda:
     Do we base our discussions on formal semantics declared at schema.rdfs.org
     (RDFS classes and properties) which interprets the not-so-formal semantics of
     schema.org with the following rules
     type                   > rdfs:Class
     type hierarchy         > rdfs:subClassOf
     property               > rdfs:Property
     type has property      > rdfs:domain (the highest type in the type hierarchy having the property)
     property expected type > rdfs:range
     The owl schema at http://schema.org/docs/schemaorg.owl has the same interpretation.
     The prose at http://schema.org/docs/datamodel.html seems to be quite loose
        1. each property may have one or more types as its domains. The property may
           be used for instances of any of these types.
        2. each property may have one or more types as its ranges. The value(s)
           of the property should be instances of at least one of these types.
     The "may" and "should" are not as hard declarations as the formal rdfs:range
     and rdfs:domain ...
 Tom: Item1: Source of mappings: Schema.org or Rdfs.org?

 Karen: If we go for schema.org, do we have to re-invent the RDFS semantics in
 rdfs.org?  If we use Schema.org, won't we have to invent the type of thing
 that is in schema.rdfs.org. How can we hook things on this when so vague.

 Dan: Schema.org is vague, it has some mistakes.  Vague in many senses - put
 together quickly - mistakes... Hidden in the prose. In Schema, you don't
 notice problems in the other documentation.

 Dan: Classes give place in structure but you can't express everything
 machine-readably. We do use RDF Schema to describe Schema.org - comment,
 label, hierarchy, definition, etc. Differences around constraints - which
 properties go with which. Example: awards property - can attach to person or
 to a creative work. If you say domain is Person... In RDF Schema, people come
 up with "awardable thing" as superclass. Schema.org does not encourage this
 way of modeling. For the moment, these things are more like documentational
 hints than hard-and-fast. The documentation pages make a difference. Let's go
 back to focusing on the text.

 Dan: Latest schema.org RDFS:

 Karen: Not sure it answers my question... To what extent will basing the DC
 mapping to Schema.org - is DC more similar to Schema.org or to Rdfs.org?
 Are there significant differences that would affect mappings?

 Jon: So we're not comparing http://schema.rdfs.org/all.rdf with
 http://schema.org/docs/schemaorg.owl ?

 Dan: Having gone through creation of schema.rdfs.org, highlighted a way we
 could make Schema.org closer to RDF. Discussions behind us. Work of Rdfs.org
 is more or less done now.  Was important in its time.

 Jon: I think at one time, the schema.org RDFS/OWL lagged behind the published
 schema.org. Is this no longer the case?  Since schema.rdfs.org says "We
 automatically scrape the Schema.org terms on a daily basis"

 Dan: OWL was updated as of last week. Need to write software. Right now not up-to-date.
 Intent is that the OWL should be up to date.  Right now, there is some lag.

        <div typeof="rdf:Property" about="http://schema.org/awards">
        <span class="h" property="rdfs:label">awards</span>
        <span property="rdfs:comment">Awards won by this person or for this creative work.</span>
        <span>Domain: <a property="http://schema.org/domain" href="http://schema.org/CreativeWork">CreativeWork</a></span>
        <span>Domain: <a property="http://schema.org/domain" href="http://schema.org/Person">Person</a></span>
        <span>Range: <a property="http://schema.org/range" href="http://schema.org/Text">Text</a></span>

 Bernard: I think it is misleading to talk about Domain and Range in this
 context. When Rdfs.org said it was scraping daily, interpreting Domain, but
 just uses these Union constructs. Still very uneasy.

 Tom: http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller?format=turtle&in_fmt=rdfa&uri=https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/raw-file/default/schema.org/drafts/alpha/rdfa.html

 Karen: If what bernard says is the case, then it does sound problematic

 Dan: "Domain" is overloaded - need to resolve Schema.org "domain" to documentation.

 Antoin: At least it's schemaorg:domain, not rdfs:domain. So from that
 perspective the RDFa is more correct that schema.rdf.org!  Except that
 semantics of http://schema.org/domain is written nowhere.  That's the point.

 Dan: Our discussions get bogged down in infrastructure, methodology. Since
 Schema.org and DC are loosey-goosey, try to get working dataset of real world
 DC examples.

 Antoin: @Bernard: in fact your mail was a quite good definition for
 schemaorg:domain (informal) semantics.

 Dan: Semantics of schema:domain/range are in http://schema.org/docs/datamodel.html

 Karen: Maybe not either/or. I like Dan's idea of working with examples to see
 where they take us. Then we can go back and look at more structural/technical
 issues. But find it hard to talk about structural/technical issues without
 having examples.

     GordonD: +1 for working with examples AND assuming domain/range are compatible/same
     kcoylenet:          +1 use cases
    antoine:          +1

 Dan: Antoine, to push on examples a bit. One of the motvations for doing this
 work, so people don't have to agonize about whether to use Microdata or RDFa,

 Karen: How do we move from examples to use cases?
 Dan: Sort of an interview-like model. Blog-like questionnaire: what are you
 [trying to do] with the metadata? What do your stakeholders think of lighter
 or heavier metadata?

 Antoine: Publish data in as many channels as possible.

 Dan:: would it be at all possible to get anchor links into the rdfa here:
 similar to what antoine__'s done here:

 Karen: I now understand better why Dan was asking for examples. The examples I
 gave were for stand-alone records. Maybe should be looking for examples of
 embedded DC?  Would be useful for commenting, and could also help people
 reference the documentation with more specificity outside of commenting

 Gordon: schema.org and dc may end up in same document if doc is assembled from different sources ...

 Dan: if there is a database of this somewhere - not sure where line is drawn.

 Karen: In my experience, DC used to described resources, not being used
 internally to resources - what I encounter is stand-alone records. Does that
 make a difference in terms of use cases?  May not be a viable use case for
 what we are talking about here.

 Dan: Antoine, do you have a better Mona Lisa than
 http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F.html ?

 was the link I was about to post, but it's clearly not Mona Lisa.

 Jon: This may be a na├»ve question but shouldn't we be mapping to the
 schema.org URIs regardless? For instance dct:BibliographicResource to
 http://schema.org/CreativeWork ?

 Dan: (yes please re mapping)

 GordonD: Merging/interoperating metadata standalone docs (records) is a
 different use-case from merging metadata embedded in texts

 Dan: view-source:http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F.html

 Jon: Both schema.rdfs.org and schema.org reference the same URIs, but describe
 them slightly differently.

    Corey: jonphipps++ re: mapping URIs

        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:language" content="de-DE"/>
        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:rights" content="Deutsche Fotothek"/>
        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:source" content="SLUB/Deutsche Fotothek"/>
        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:subject" content="Malerei"/>
        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:subject" content="Bild"/>
        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:subject" content="Fotos"/>
        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:subject" content="Ortskatalog zur Kunst und Architektur"/>
        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:title" content="Mona Lisa - 2000"/>
        <meta about="http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/01004/AC2B3AA843934B18E804DD40BF6E7BDD9C04067F" 
            property="dc:type" content="image"/>

 Dan: How many of those properties could usefully have schema:keywords
 schema:name etc added too? (then this group is the group working out such

 Jon: It seems to me that the http://schema.org URIs MUST be what we use for canonical definitions

 Antoine: @danbri: http://www.europeana.eu/resolve/record/03919/FCD38BDE7A03579F24BEDA5D157943B75BB36F11 is the one

 Dan: The One.  http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/08502/91B9F52D5EE11B19F0C09C7B5FEA194B31B7049D.html is another.

 Tom: suggest raising this in DCAM meeting tomorrow/tuesday

 Jon: schema.rdfs.org has no ability to 'define' URIs that don't exist in a
 domain that it controls, only to provide an alternative description

        GordonD:  +1 for continuing/merging some aspects of this discussion with the DCAM call tomorrow
        Corey: +1 re: tomorrow, and I have to run soon. Also, I may have to cut off the DCAM call a little bit early tomorrow.
        Antoine: +1 but I'm not sure I understand there is common ground!
        GordonD:  Would be good to confirm that there is no common ground!

 Karen: Difference btw saying I'm describing something over there as to
 describing something within the resource. Library md is about describing
 something out there. But if you are inside the thing, provide information for
 people using

 Dan: rediscovers 2001 DC8 slides, http://dublincore.org/workshops/dc8/DCMIArchitecture2/sld001.html
 Re examples.

 Jon: This may apply: http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/170

Tom Baker <[log in to unmask]>

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