Khem Caigan doth schreibble:
>>>
>>> Horary, electional, architectural, medical, telesmatic, musical,
>>> magical, alchemical, daemonic astrology - the 'bones and sinews'
>>> - the eventual and operative as opposed to the purely psychological
>>> and speculative side of astrology - all of astrology "from the
>>> neck down" - was committed to its deathbed and walled off by legal
>>> strictures.
>>>
>>> And there it *largely* remains to this day, still throbbing away
>>> insistently like Poe's telltale heart.

And on 5/25/2012 9:56 AM, nagasiva yronwode doth reply:

> That generalization does not hold for folk magic, whatever ceremonial
> magicians and those deriving their magical practices from this worthy
> traditional milieu may find to be 'walled off'. Talismanic astrology, for
> example, remedial magical astrology, at least, are to be found within
> the North American occult maelstrom in my experience. I'm not an
> astrologer, so please pardon my lack of familiarity with all these terms.

I say *largely*, drawing attention to the overwhelming disparity in
numbers between those who practice Popular Astrology and those who
practice Electional/Daemonic talismatics.

Folk talismatics are likewise in the minority in comparison with
the productions of Popular Astrologers, and the astrological
preparations in Folk talismatics are nowhere near as exacting or
complicated as those employed by Electional / Daemonic Astrologers
(it's really a case of comparing 'apples-and-oranges'), who are
again in the minority with regard to Folk Practitioners as well as
Popular / Psychological Astrologers.

I don't consider myself a "ceremonial magician", by-the-way.

To me, that term is just as absurd as speaking of "ceremonial
carpentry" or "ceremonial chemistry".

I'm okay with 'Astrological Magician' ('astral magician' would work,
also, but for the fact that the term 'astral' has been misappropriated /
distorted over the years and thus largely lost its original reference
to the Planets and Stars) and 'Daemonic Astrologer' works for me, too.

Agrippa and I are in complete agreement when he says:

" This place doth require that we speak of Magick; for it is so near
joined to, and of affinity with Astrology, in so much that he that
professes Magick without Astrology, doth nothing, but altogether is
in an error. "

"Jewitch" works for me, also ;)

> One of the intellectually hobbling aspects of astrology (a discipline of
> divination for which i have some great degree of admiration), is that
> it has stagnated or been relegated to the status of religious dogma
> and rather painted itself into a proverbial dustbin through doctrines
> and mnemonics provided *static* endorsement in relation to a system
> of observation (the natural world, astronomic) that is constantly in flux.
>
> 'Standardizing' a series of constellation-related 'signs', for example,
> along an annual temporal band when in fact by precession of the
> equinoces this matching is gradually shifting backwards presents
> several challenges which i hope will not be insurmountable to those
> interested in preserving astrology as more than character analysis.

We've had this discussion before on the old Yahoo! Ritual Magic
Discussion List to no good purpose, Nagasiva, and the information
below is mostly of interest to practicing astrologers <and pre-19th
CEV ones, at that>, so I apologize in advance for beating on the
dead horse again, as it were. But I do think that it is necessary
to address this sort of confusion for the sake of all of the other
non-astrologers out there besides yourself, because there are a
number of very common misconceptions in your text above.

Firstly :

Tropical Astrology is based upon the movement of the Sun through Four
Seasons of 90 Degrees each, and the Twelve Signs of 30 Degrees each.

The Zero Point will always be the Spring Equinox, and it will always
be in the Sign of Aries.

The Sign of Aries /is not/ the Constellation of Aries. Like the other
Signs, the Sign of Aries is a 30 Degree arc along the path of the Sun.

The Sign of Aries is one of Twelve Phases of the Sun's passage through
the Four Seasons of the Year.

Precession has no effect upon the Zodiac of Tropical Astrology
whatsoever.

Secondly :

Tropical Astrology was employed for Daemonic / Magical purposes
long before it was shoe-horned into character analysis by the
Courts - going at least as far back as the 6th Century BCE.

It is a tradition that harks back to Ptolemy and the Grimoires (up
to, say, the 1700s).

Here's a more extensive diagram that includes our Four Ages of the
Day, the Year, the Sun, and Humanity:

Season:  Spring-   Summer-     Autumn-      Winter
Age :    Childhood-Youth-      Maturity-    Old Age
Region : East-     South-      West-        North
Element :Air-      Fire-       Earth-       Water
Humor :  Blood-    Yellow Bile-Black Bile-  Phlegm
Temper : Sanguine- Choleric-   Melancholic- Phlegmatic

~ from:

*The Four Elements*
@Unani.com
http://www.unani.com/four_elements.htm

["Unani" is "Ionian" - that is to say, Greek]

Below are the Ptolemaic attributions from his *Tetrabiblos*:

Dawn     Spring  Wet-becoming-Hot
Midday   Summer  Hot-becoming-Dry
Dusk     Autumn  Dry-becoming-Cold
Midnight Winter  Cold-becoming-Wet

~ from:

*Elemental Qualities in Astrology*
by Ian Thurnwald
@AstrologyCom.com
http://tinyurl.com/2hyws4

See also this diagram from Isidore of
Seville's *Liber de Responsione Mundi* :

http://tinyurl.com/38bpbq

Note the words at the center of
Isidore's diagram:

World - Year - Human

There is a similar diagram here, from
Isidore of Seville's *De Natura Rerum* :

http://tinyurl.com/n53hy

And at the center of this diagram, we
read:

Kosmos Homo, or World Human.

There is also a reproduction of Byrhtferth's
*Macrocosm* in Karen Jolly's *Popular Religion
in Late Saxon England*, which gives the exact
same attributions as Isidore of Seville, from
a document that is over 900 years old.

Here is a link to the page by way of GoogleBooks :

*Popular Religion in Late Saxon England :
Elf Charms in Context*
by Karen Louise Jolly
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/346og6

All of which is to say that the Circulation
of the Elements was / is understood to be
Identical for Humans and their Environment -
an essential sympathy / continuity between the
"Little Worlds" and the "Big World".

It is very similar to the Chinese Wu Xing or
Five Phases, /if/ Wood is taken for our Air and
Metal is taken for our Earth.

The attributions of Fire/Summer and Water/Winter
are, of course, identical.

It is just to the extent that this Cycle is
correctly understood and employed that we
will be able to achieve the effects these
Natural Philosophers were able to achieve,
whether that be in Music or Medicine or
Meteorology and Magic (for example).

And again, I am assuming that these old
disciplines are of interest to a Practitioner
(they most definitely are of interest to me).

If that's not the case, some other cuppa/system
will do - there is always *Sidereal Astrology*, for
example, which /does/ take Precession into account.

*Sidereal and Tropical Astrology*
@Wikipedia
http://tinyurl.com/cw7epza

But the sort of Astrology that we find in the
Grimoires is Tropical/Seasonal, and those of us
who practice such magics also practice Tropical
Astrology into the bargain (we do, however, put
on our 'Sidereal Hats' and refer to the positions
of the Stars and Constellations in Telesmatic and
Evocational works involving the Star Daemons).

Here is another corroborating excerpt, from
the Llullian corpus:

"The Planets in the Signs of the
Fiery Triplicity
(Aries, Leo and Sagittarius)
are Hot and Dry

The Planets in the Signs of the
Earthly Triplicity
(Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn)
are Cold and Dry

The Planets in the Signs of the
Airy Triplicity
(Gemini, Libra and Aquarius)
are Hot and Moist.

The Planets in the Signs of the
Watery Triplicity
(Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces)
are Cold and Moist.

The Moon is ~

Hot and Moist in her First Quarter,
Hot and Dry in her Second Quarter,
Cold and Dry in her Third Quarter and
Cold and Moist in her Final Quarter.

< see this diagram :
http://tinyurl.com/2lymu7  >

The Quality of the Sun is considered
according to Season.

In the Spring Signs
(Aries, Taurus and Gemini)
he is Hot and Moist.

In the Summer Signs
(Cancer, Leo and Virgo)
he is Hot and Dry.

In the Autumn Signs
(Libra, Scorpio and Sagittarius)
he is Cold and Dry.

In the Winter Signs
(Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces)
he is Cold and Moist.

See also (Pseudo-)Llull's Elemental/Humoural
*System of the Seven Planets*
http://tinyurl.com/es787

And here is another assignment of the Four
Elements to the Four Directions from the
*Ars Paulina*:

Fiery Region -  Michael - South
Earthy Region - Uriel   - West
Aerial Region - Raphael - East
Watery Region - Gabriel - North

And again:

"Those geniis that are of the order of the Fire,
are to be observed in the Summer quarter
& those of the Earth in Autumn,
and those of the Air in the Spring,
and those of the Water in the Winter quarter-&c."

Below I again give an example of the Stoic Humoural System
found in the Grimoires as it relates to the Corporeality and
Physiognomy of Spirits as described in the *Heptameron* and
the *Key of Solomon*:

Spirits of Saturn: Tall, lean, slender body.

Spirits of Jupiter: Sanguine and Choleric, of middle stature.

Spirits of Mars: Tall, Choleric.

Spirits of the Sun: Large, full and great body Sanguine and gross.

Spirits of Venus: Fair body, middle stature.

Spirits of Mercury: Middle stature, cold, liquid and moist.

Spirits of the Moon: Great and full body, soft and Phlegmatic.

See also:

*Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key*
by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/2c6jdz3

*Astrological Physiognomy from Ptolemy to the Present Day*
by Bernard Eccles
@SkyScript.com
http://tinyurl.com/337fw9w

*Reading the Human Body: Physiognomics and Astrology in
the Dead Sea Scrolls*
by Mladen Popovic
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/385ywbm

*A Contribution to the Study of Palaeologan Magic*
by Richard Greenfield (.PDF)
@DumbartonOaks.org
http://tinyurl.com/6sxb26y

*The Humours: Introduction to Decumbiture*
by Dylan Warren-Davis
http://tinyurl.com/cce7t4

*Astrology and Health: Vitalism and Humours*
by Dylan Warren-Davis
http://tinyurl.com/2lglm9

Ptolemy's *Tetrabiblos*
http://tinyurl.com/dbzttz

And here are a few more texts for Jon Sharp :

*Hippocrates' Latin American Legacy:
Humoral Medicine in the New World*
by George M. Foster
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/blhz7vd

*Ritual Medical Lore of Sephardic Women:
Sweetening the Spirits, Healing the Sick*
by Isaac Jack Lévy & Rosemary Lévy Zumwalt
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/cels8cn

*Passions and Tempers:
A History of the Humours*
by Noga Arikha
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/7gn3gky

(Noga gets special mention here, because she is one of
very few authors possessing the integrity to stick to
the old material and not distort it in order to align
herself with the 'Moderns'.)

*The Ages of Man:
Medieval Interpretations of the Life Cycle*
by Elizabeth Sears
(No Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/7ptr6pv

[ Incidentally, Jon - I'm in the process of putting up the
entire contents of the *Harry Everett Smith Memorial Library*
on LibraryThing.

Here is the address, if anyone cares to visit :

http://www.librarything.com/profile/Khem_Caigan ]

=============

Below are some examples that demonstrate the Elemental /
Humoural basis of Alchemy :

Here are links to some barely legible enlargements
that I made from a diagram found in Ripley's
alchemical corpus [ 15th CEV ] :

Ge-Li-Aq
Calidum < Warm >
Humidum < Wet >
Ver     < Spring >
Digestive
East
http://tinyurl.com/ywrs9b

Ar-Le-Sa
Calidum < Warm >
Siccum  < Dry >
Aestas  < Summer >
Attractive
South
http://tinyurl.com/yrwcem

Ta-Vi-Ca
Frigidum < Cold >
Siccum   < Dry >
Autumnus < Fall >
Retentive
West
http://tinyurl.com/2jnewz

Ca-Sc-Pi
Frigidum < Cold >
Humidum  < Wet >
Hyems    < Winter >
Expulsive
North
http://tinyurl.com/2sz7ps

============================

I have transcribed the circumference of
*Ripley's Key* from Ashmole's
*Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum* below:

====================

1.) The First Side or
West Latitude of the
Stone and the Entry
into the Practice.
Earthy in Quality.
Occasionate.
Occidental.

As holy scripture maketh mention
Into the womb of a virgin immaculate
Christ descended for our redemption
  From his high throne to be incarnate
So the Sun descendeth here from his estate
Fourth from the South passing into the West
Through the Ocean labouring without rest.

Saturnus tenet terram [Saturn / Earth / West ]

2.) The Profundity of
the Stone in the North.
and the Sphere of Purgatory.
Watery in Quality. Variable in
Colour. Dark and Imperfect. The
Eclipse of the Sunne.
North.

As Christ his Godhead hid from our sight
When he our kind on him did take
Right so the Sun his beams of light
As for a time here him forsake
For under the wings of his mate
The Moon he hideth his glory
And dieth in kind that he may multiply.

Mercurius tenet aquam [Mercury / Water / North]

3.) The Second Side or
East Latitude of the Stone
and Entering into the Specula-
tive. Aiery in Quality. the
Light Sphere of Paradise.
the Full Moon.
Oriental.

As Christ in tomb was tumulate
After his passion and death on tree
And after in body glorificate
Uprose endued with clarity
Right so by Corporal penalty
The Sun Eclipsed with colours variable
In the East upriseth in Whiteness incomparable.

Jupiter tenet aerem [Jupiter / Air / East]

4.) The Altitude of
the Stone in the South.
Fiery in Quality. Shining
more than the perfect Quint-
essence. The End of
Practice.
Temperate.
South

As Christ from earth to heaven did ascend
In Clouds of glory up to his high throne
And reigneth there shining without end
To whose clearness comparison may be none
Right so the Sun now made our Stone
To his first glory renewed with youth
Ascendeth to be intronizate in the South

Sol tenet ignem [Sun / Fire / South]

====================

And so, once again, we find the Four Stages of
the Great Work related to the Cycle of the Sun
through the Four Seasons, along with the Four
Elements:

Autumn : Earth
Winter : Water
Spring : Air
Summer : Fire

See also :

*Four Seasons Chess*
http://tinyurl.com/9mbel

Four Seasons Chess is an early form of chess
that employs the Agricultural and Seasonal
attributions described above, dating from
the 12th CEV.

"As its name implies, the game is a competition
between four players, each representing one of
the seasons.

Moreover, each player's colour represents one
of the four elements and a humour.

Green represents Spring, Air, and Blood;
Red represents Summer, Fire, and Choler;
Black represents Autumn, Earth, and Melancholy;
White represents Winter, Water, and Phlegm."

*Farmer's Chess*
[four seasons variant]
http://tinyurl.com/azham

Those authors that reduce/collapse one of the Four Elements
to just /one/ of the two Qualities that make up an Element
are responsible for skewing the Correspondences in some of
the old texts.

For example, Fire is not merely Hot, it is Hot and Dry - see
Agrippa:

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa:
*Of Occult Philosophy*, Book I. (part 1)

Chap. iii.

Of the four Elements, their Qualities, and Mutual Mixtions.

" There are four Elements, and original grounds of all corporeal
things, Fire, Earth, Water, Air, of which all elementated inferior
bodies are compounded; not by way of heaping them up together, but
by transmutation, and union; and when they are destroyed, they are
resolved into Elements.

Now, every one of the Elements hath two specifical Qualities, the
former whereof it retains as proper to it self, in the other, as a
mean, it agrees with that which comes next after it.

Fire is Hot and Dry, -(Summer)
Earth Dry and Cold,  -(Autumn)
Water Cold and Moist,-(Winter)
Air Moist and Hot.   -(Spring)

And so after this manner the Elements, according to two contrary
Qualities, are contrary one to the other, as Fire to Water, and
Earth to Air. "

Once you have identified an author as a Reductionist and repaired
their schemata by re-introducing the Complimentary Qualities that
they have subtracted from the Four Elements, the Correspondences
sort themselves out nicely.

I don't see any evidence of pre-1800s astrological magic becoming
stagnant or dogmatic - the handful of practitioners out there are
an artistic and innovative bunch, and (for the most part) we are
happy to discuss our procedures and results with others.

I'm 'Old School', by-the-way, and I have never charged anybody
a dime for training (I've never refused cornbread or brownies,
though ;) ).

It's a largely coherent system, in my experience, and even a
passing acquaintance helps practitioners make sense out of the
astrological herbalism practiced by folks like Culpeper (for
example).

I do hear folks complaining that it takes a lot of time to learn
just the basics of astrology and astrological magic, and that it
is necessary to /unlearn/ a lot of recent material along the way.

For those folks, there's always Cha0$ m@9ic (and Cha0$ A$tr01o6y),
where you can do pretty much whatever you want and call it whatever
you want - "Have it your way!"

Cors in Manu Domine,


~ Khem Caigan
<[log in to unmask]>

"Heat and Moisture are Active to Generation;
Cold and Dryness are Passive, in and to each thing;
Fire and Air, Active by Elementation;
Water and Earth, Passive to Generation."

'Of the Division of Chaos'
-Dr. Simon Forman