Thank you all for this contribution! 
I am sorry not being able to react quickly to all your wonderful comments. 
But before I run off again, I just wanted to thank Jürgen, Ariane and all those who brought up the topic of the responsibility for everyone who works in the arts. 
Even though I have made very positive experiences throughout all my workshops I gave, I could still not be sure about the long term effects, those would have. Only people who could profit from them got in contact with me again. I don't know whether the others just didn't care or didn't like them  or whether they had rather bad aftereffects. I feel, that it is necessary for all artists working in non-artistic environments to understand very well, that the work can also have negative effects and find a way to address this or take responsibility for this in some sense. 
Would be great, if some of you guys could bring in examples from your own practices. Thanks!

Another aspect of this, especially thinking of Hitler and Riefenstahl: From the artistic side, I hear very often the criticism, that artists working in companies are instrumented by their clients. Do you feel this is true and do you think it is avoidable? How? Is there a different attitude from artists consultants than from pure business consultants?

Many Thanks
Katrin



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Aesthetics, Creativity, and Organisations Research Network [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Ariane Berthoin Antal
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2012 22:20
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: FW: AW: choreography and dynamic structures - follow up and WSCI

This entire thread is fascinating--and Jürgen's addition is really important. We constantly run the danger of associating only "nice and good" things with the arts. His examples remind us that the arts, including choreography, can be applied in ways that threaten humanity, and they can involve many many people, beyond the 150 discussed in earlier posts. If we aspire to a) achieve something "good" (for whom?) with the arts in organizations/society and b) understand the workings of these processes, we really have to be open to seeing the dangers and potential damage that they can also be associated with. Sometimes I worry that we treat arts like tamed dancing bears.
Ariane


> Š don't forget all the dictators: They used and use the power of 
> choreography. Not only during military parades. See the army p.ex. of
> Prussia: even in the battle field the perfect choreography.
> Jürgen
>
> Von:  Claire Dale <[log in to unmask]> Antworten an:  Claire 
> Dale <[log in to unmask]>
> Datum:  Dienstag, 1. Mai 2012 10:08
> An:  <[log in to unmask]>
> Betreff:  Re: AW: choreography and dynamic structures - follow up and 
> WSCI
>
> Re: AW: choreography and dynamic structures - follow up and WSCI Dear 
> AACORNers  Just a quick note from me ­ I will contribute fully at the 
> weekend, and am so enjoying reading the posts so far.
>
> With regard to scale and collaboration - Here in London its all about 
> the Olympics at the moment. The Olympic opening and closing ceremonies 
> are probably one of the largest scale choreographed operations! - more 
> on the scale of a corporation.
>
> Claire Dale
>
>
>
>
> On 30/04/2012 20:54, "Katrin Kolo" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> It¹s really exciting how this conversation goes on! I agree about the 
>> size, even I would say there are choreographic or other artistic 
>> works with more than 150 people involved (just imagine big events in 
>> big sport stadia.) And those usually don¹t leave much space for 
>> improvisation or individuality of the performers.
>> But as Brenda says, also in organisation group size is ususally even 
>> more limited. Would be interesting to find out what is the highest 
>> and what is the average number of employees who directly report to 
>> one boss. Does anyone of you know?
>>
>> I also would like to raise my other question, if anyone knows 
>> something more about service choreography? I only found on Wikipedia 
>> the following ­ quite interesting explanation:
>> The intuition underlying the notion of service choreography can be 
>> summarised as follows: ³Dancers dance following a global scenario 
>> without a single point of control"
>> What Do you think about this?
>>
>> Looking forward to reading more of you!
>>
>> Katrin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Von: Aesthetics, Creativity, and Organisations Research Network 
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Brenda Parkerson
>> Gesendet: Montag, 30. April 2012 12:57
>> An: [log in to unmask]
>> Betreff: Re: choreography and dynamic structures - follow up and WSCI
>>
>>
>>
>> This is an excellent point and I completely agree. There are 
>> limitations to applying arts processes to large groups. Even 
>> processes for ensemble group working or working within the feudal 
>> structures of an orchestra aren't useful for very large groups.
>>
>> Having said that, most organizational work is done in smaller groups 
>> of people, perhaps for this very reason.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:13 AM, "Piers Ibbotson" <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is such an interesting conversation. I wonder of there is an 
>>> element that we overlook when we talk about the qualities of 
>>> artistic
>>> processes: and
>>> that is the question of group size. The silos and bureacracies that 
>>> impede adaptability and creativity in organisations are a product of 
>>> their size.
>>> Very large numbers of people cannot order their activities without 
>>> them and their existence then reinforces the kind of status 
>>> differences and ego games that make creative collaboration 
>>> difficult. Large groups also cannot provide the quality of mutual 
>>> trust and intimacy that frees people to take risks.
>>> Artistic collaborations only ever take place in small groups. Even 
>>> the very largest artistic performances you can imagine have no more 
>>> than about
>>> 150
>>> performers in them and the vast majority of productions far, far fewer.
>>>
>>> There is some interesting research going on around group size in 
>>> primate societies that seems to sit very well with observations of 
>>> what constitutes a stable, healthy, creative community. Thinking 
>>> about organisations as relatively simple structures composed of huge 
>>> numbers of people (I had a brief from a company that refered to 
>>> their "top team" of 500 senior
>>> executives) is clearly missing something.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Brenda Parkerson <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:45 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: choreography and dynamic structures - follow up and 
>>>> WSCI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would venture to say that adaptation is par for the course in 
>>>> choreography and is indeed a very useful model for business and in 
>>>> particular for line management and leading teams. You work with 
>>>> what you've got and together you make it work to serve the artistic 
>>>> vision of the choreographer. It is a fascinating interdependent 
>>>> relationship between choreographer and performer that requires 
>>>> trust and a willingness to take personal risks. I believe that the 
>>>> relationship is really quite fragile. There is something here that 
>>>> is apolitical which I can't quite articulate. Perhaps when personal 
>>>> politics enters the equation (i.e. a dancer vying for a bigger 
>>>> role, promotion or other career move) the creative process is 
>>>> hindered or burdened.
>>>>
>>>> This can be seen in the film Stricktly Bolshoi - about Christopher 
>>>> Wheeldon's struggle to set a piece at the  Bolshoi. The star dancer 
>>>> was not able to take a risk with Wheeldon fearing he might end up 
>>>> in a bad piece. It was recast with dancers lower in rank (with 
>>>> nothing to lose). If you haven't seen this film, you should. 
>>>> Collaboration and artistic egos do not make for an easy ride!
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Brenda
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Stephen Carroll 
>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Katrin,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thinking about  Steve Œs comments about his theatre experiences 
>>>> working with choreographers,  I recently observed stage productions 
>>>> in which choreographers played a major role.  In the last week I 
>>>> attended an opera ­Havisham by Argento- and a play about Darwin 
>>>> entitled Sandwalk  on my campus in which  choreographers  played  
>>>> major roles. By incorporating significant dance elements into both 
>>>> productions, the performances were enhanced significantly in an 
>>>> aesthetic sense as well as advancing the narratives.  In the 
>>>> dancing elements of the performances , dance movements compatible 
>>>> with the capabilities of the singers and actors were introduced 
>>>> congruent with the usual space, music, lighting, and aesthetic 
>>>> limitations and considerations. The choreographers had to 
>>>> collaborate with actors, singers, as well as stage and musical 
>>>> directors and others to make these productions the memorable 
>>>> performances they were. Extensive rehearsals identified possible 
>>>> future problems which were then effectively made less probable. 
>>>> High adaptation skills for these choreographers were critical to 
>>>> their success.
>>>>
>>>> Many management academics and consultants  over the past forty 
>>>> years have described the inability of many organizations of all 
>>>> types to adapt and change effectively when faced with changing 
>>>> circumstances. Traditional command and control systems, 
>>>> bureaucracies, internal silos  as well as differences in subunit 
>>>> cultures, often prevent necessary collaboration and problem solving 
>>>> from occurring. Awareness of the choreographic model might be very 
>>>> helpful in such organizational design and change programs.
>>>> Steve C.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen (Steve) Carroll
>>>> Maryland Business School
>>>> 301/405-2239 <tel:301%2F405-2239>
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----"Aesthetics, Creativity, and Organisations Research Network"
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: -----
>>>>
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> From: Katrin Kolo
>>>> Sent by: "Aesthetics, Creativity, and Organisations Research Network"
>>>> Date: 04/25/2012 05:37PM
>>>> Subject: choreography and dynamic structures - follow up and WSCI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear AACORNERs,
>>>> it¹s impressing how many mails with great thoughts have already 
>>>> been sent. I am extremely grateful, that this network exists. 
>>>> Thanks to all of you, who make this such a remarkable meeting and 
>>>> discussing space!
>>>>
>>>> I decided to collect emails and follow discussions individually, in 
>>>> order to summarize and then bring the theme back to all AACORNers. 
>>>> I hope this way, I respect also the people in the network, who are 
>>>> not too interested in this vibrant mail traffic. Hope this is fine 
>>>> for all of you.
>>>>
>>>> There is only question I would like to ask right now: Is there 
>>>> anyone of you, who knows something about ³service choreography² 
>>>> notation (WSCI)?
>>>> I
>>>> would love to learn more about this.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again
>>>> Best
>>>> Katrin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
> Claire Dale
> Director | Companies in Motion
>
> T +44 (0)7932 680224
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.companiesinmotion.com
>
> Transforming the way people learn and engage
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Prof. Dr. Ariane Berthoin Antal
from April-September 2012
Fellow at the Kulturwissenschaftliches Kolleg Otto-Adam-Strasse 5
D-78467 Konstanz

http://www.wzb.eu/en/personen/ariane-berthoin-antal
Blog: www.culturalsourcesofnewness.net
Research program:
http://www.wzb.eu/en/research/society-and-economic-dynamics/cultural-sources-of-newness/projects/artistic-interventions-in-organiza