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COMMUNITYPSYCHUK  March 2012

COMMUNITYPSYCHUK March 2012

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Subject:

Re: the corruption of medicine, and of our email discourse

From:

John Cromby <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

The UK Community Psychology Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:55:38 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Tom many thanks for the hat news, I'll bear it in mind next time I'm 
tonsorially challenged.

I'm sure there's a large element of truth in what you say about the 
feelings that our exchanges enact, inculcate and suppress, and some 
truth too in what you say about how and why they are being played out 
here. Falling prey to 'the narcissism of minor differences' is a widely 
recognised danger for most specialised interest groups.

At the same time this is a discussion list: by definition one of its 
functions is to debate. Despite the alexithymic fantasies of the 
cognitivists that's impossible without feelings being invoked and 
circulated. I was genuinely surprised by Richard's dismissal of Craig's 
comment, just as I'm now puzzled by his reply, and that presumably came 
across. Is that a bad thing? People will perhaps have different views, 
but I don't think that those views should preclude discussion (nor 
acknowledgement of them deflect it).

I guess another way of putting this is to re-iterate - as has been said 
on other threads - that it isn't personal: its about the ideas.

If we were collectively more passionate about ideas - and 
correspondingly less passionate about X-Factor, Celebrity Gypsy Fat Swap 
and the like - perhaps the relevance of capitalism to distress would not 
need to be restated...

J.



On 20/03/2012 14:13, Tom Wengraf wrote:
> Just to say that in nearly every new email in this exchange so far I feel
> the level of felt pain needing expression constantly rising and the danger
> of destructive 'explosion' rising as well. I feel that most of those
> involved share a broadly similar approach (as psychologists concerned for
> something partly conveyable by 'community') but that frustration at the
> inroads of contemporary capitalism and anger at the 'differences within' are
> producing the emotional feel of 'sectarianism' when people collectively
> under great pressure tear at those quite near to them because the pressure
> from 'the enemy' and the societal distance from 'the enemy' makes it all
> come out on those nearest. (and the disembodied publication-by-email mode
> enables the feelings to be less carefully expressed and experienced as more
> hurtful and disrespectful). A 'community psychology' struggling both to
> understand and reduce the intensification of fury and contempt and 'felt
> betrayal' among 'community psychologists' so painfully  and so pain-inducing
> writing to each other seems to me to be very important.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Tom
>
> P.S. For news about hats, click on http://www.katiawengraf.com/
>
> P.S. For news, photos and stuff about our women's micro-credit and other
> projects in South-West Uganda, look at our<www.kiafrica.org>.
>
> P.P. S. To those interested in social research using biographic narrative
> interviews: For a free electronic copy of the current version of the BNIM
> Short Guide and Detailed Manual, just  write to<[log in to unmask]>  .
> Please indicate your institutional affiliation and the purpose for which you
> might envisage using BNIM's open-narrative interviews, and I'll send it
> straight away. ('BNIM' stands for Biographic Narrative Interpretive
> Method').
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Cromby
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:16 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: the corruption of medicine
>
> Richard, I am stunned that you can so breezily dismiss the relevance to
> clinical psychologists of what you describe as 'going on about
> capitalism'. It strains credulity to imagine that you sincerely believe
> that your practice, their practice, the lives, experiences and distress
> of clients are somehow disconnected from the social and economic
> arrangements that produce the conditions in which all of us act, and
> which therefore - over time, because doing shapes being - help produce
> the kinds of person we are able to be. The evidence linking economic
> factors to the prevalence of distress is overwhelming and Wilkinson&
> Pickett's work, for example, is just the most recent high profile
> contribution to this massive and influential body of literature.
>
> The harmful aspects of capitalist social relations persist in large part
> because people are systematically misled about the conditions under
> which they live and work: not by some grand conspiracy, but - as Chomsky
> and other analysts have shown - by a simple confluence of overlapping
> interests which are not homogenous nut nevertheless frequently share
> important tendencies and directions.
>
> In this context your assertion about the conceptual frameworks of
> trainees (and I do wonder how you can actually know these) is deeply
> troubling. Leaving aside for one moment the directly ideological aspects
> of your claim, clinically it suggests that you would be happy for
> trainees to just ignore the evidence base linking distress to economic
> factors and instead simply deploy their own idiosyncratic frameworks -
> and in the process mystifying service users about the nature of their
> difficulties. Even if this did not actually produce a form of
> victim-blaming - and many clinicians would argue that it inevitably does
> - it seems unlikely to be very helpful.
>
> For clarity I want to make clear that I'm absolutely not arguing that we
> reduce people's distress to capitalist social relations. I'm simply
> arguing against your apparent suggestion that we can understand people's
> distress without reference to the social and material influences upon them.
>
> J.
>
>
> On 20/03/2012 10:43, richard pemberton wrote:
>> I don't really see how you can criticise people for wanting to
>> alleviate distress. Its a basic human instinct. I also don't think the
>> psychology job market is decreasing. What is more concerning is the
>> industrialisation of care and and the corruption of evidence. Your
>> practice must have been
>> really odd if it was easier than ceiling tiling! Going on about
>> capitalism to the new generations coming up is a bit of a problem and
>> not a very skilled psychological approach? They have their own
>> conceptual frameworks.
>> Perhaps the group should be renamed the relay for subjugated
>> discourses and dispositifs of resistance and the silencing of
>> ideologically problematic dominant discourses!
>> The interesting word here is relay. What does that mean? How are we
>> relaying what to whom? Relay is quite a passive word?
>> I hear the silence.
>>
>> Richard Pemberton
>>
>> On 3/20/12, CRAIG NEWNES<[log in to unmask]>   wrote:
>>> Richard, I didn't get out. I was too exhausted to continue and kind of
> fell
>>> out. I remain in only in the sense that I still edit JCPCP but it is very
>>> difficult to see how a group of essentially middle-class UK psychologists
>>> could (or even should) change anything as if they somehow know what is
>>> better. The various community activists in the old Shropshire Dept of
>>> Psychological Therapies were people who were active locally and
> politically
>>> anyway - psychology or a nursing qualification was merely their ticket to
>>> ride. Of the 85 folk in the Dept, perhaps 20 were serious advocates for
>>> change from a social/critical/communal position. Many of the rest were
>>> part-time and supplemented their pay through individual, often
>>> person-centred, counselling. Otur psychiatrist had given up the right to
>>> prescribe and Section but she lived with a GP who made good money through
>>> diagnosis and prescription. The model for at least Clinical Psychology in
> so
>>> called mental health is
>>>    American - see individuals, get them to strive at self improvement and
>>> presto! A person ready to rejoin the search for future wealth. I talked
> with
>>> 000s of Psychs over a period of 25 years on the lecture circuit. There
> were
>>> few who saw psychology as part of the problem, preferring instead the
> myth
>>> that psychiatry is the big bad wolf. Guy Holmes and I were twice asked by
>>> 2nd year trainees why we kept mentioning capitalism and were several
> times
>>> told we were the ONLY visiting lecturers who were critical of psychology.
>>> I've been out four years but I still do the ocasional talk - things seem
>>> worse now as trainees play the game even more furiously in an ever
>>> decreasing job market. I don't blame them - after all I became a psych
>>> because it was easier than being a ceiling tiler - but I don't need to
> watch
>>> them join the gravy train on the back of "alleviating distress."
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: richard pemberton<[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 20 March 2012, 8:43
>>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the corruption of medicine
>>>
>>> Hi Craig
>>>
>>> I don't have enormous faith in the BPS or Psychology/ists. Psychology
>>> has never made any sense to me in isolation from politics anthropology
>>> philosphy economics etc. But I don't know how you make sense of them
>>> without psychology? You are right I am over extrapolating from my own
>>> experience of applied psychologists to the whole gang. A lot of people
>>> are trapped in systems of care that are intrinsically problematic and
>>> damaging. Working to change them from the inside is exhausting often
>>> dispiriting and at the moment additionally stressful. It is good to be
>>> out the NHS and you are right it is easier to see things for what they
>>> are from the outside. I am clear however clear that I have not left
>>> behind a load of money grabbing ECT promoting people who are more part
>>> of the problem that the solution. Psychology and Applied Psychology is
>>> a bound to be caught up in the dominant narratives and lunacies of the
>>> time? The branding and marketing of the psychological therapies is as
>>> crass as the marketing of drugs. Healy has also got me interested in
>>> the corruption of academia and science in psychology. How did the EMDR
>>> brand get Nice approval?
>>>
>>> Our collective failure to understand the inherently social nature of
>>> despair disappointment and maddening care or abuse is disappointing
>>> and some many disastrous. Big Psy has quite a case to answer here.
>>> Little Psy maybe needs to sharpen its act?
>>>
>>> I am saying to my mates I am fed up with swimming against the tide. I
>>> may be barking but I do sense the tide is turning. Critical/Community
>>> psychology could and should be playing a key role in hammering home in
>>> the inherently social and justice foundations of good enough and great
>>> individual and community life.
>>>
>>> I am for my sins running for DCP Chair. The ballot is going to have to
>>> be rerun. I don't think psychology is the answer and am not putting
>>> all my eggs in the BPS basket. There are however loads of good people
>>> many of whom you know and have influenced who can help move things on.
>>>
>>> I think you got out too early and should think about rejoining!
>>>
>>> Richard Pemberton
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/19/12, CRAIG NEWNES<[log in to unmask]>   wrote:
>>>> Richard, I have no idea how you know what the "vast majority" of
>>>> psychologists want but I do know that the DCP tried to question
> editorial
>>>> independence of Forum when I published my own critique of their
>>>> non-existent
>>>> stance on ECT in ECT the DCP and ME. That was 20 years ago - if they
>>>> couldn't speak out then when the evidence was overwhelmingly against
>>>> electrocuting people, why should they now? You have an interesting faith
>>>> in
>>>> the BPS which I don't share. I think we would have to ask - if it's
> taken
>>>> 50
>>>> years for the BPS to make a cautious critique of the harm that so called
>>>> services do, why should we expect the organization to speak out about
>>>> contemporary concerns like the promulgation of computer based CBT,
>>>> logically
>>>> impossible links between cognition and neurology and the rest?
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: richard pemberton<[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Sent: Monday, 19 March 2012, 17:42
>>>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the corruption of medicine
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> I am out of the NHS and am not looking for salvation. Thats best left
>>>> to the religious amongst us. I am looking for some serious political
>>>> alliances of liked minded people to break down the conspiracy of
>>>> silence about some or all of this. It will of course take years.
>>>> Healys book is significant because it also pulls in physical health
>>>> and the extent to which physical health guidelines and nice
>>>> recommendations have also been cooked. I don't believe in depression
>>>> and abhor ECT. The BPS has also recently spoken out questioning the
>>>> use of ECT. I don't think that ever happened in your day. The BPS
>>>> supported the recent attack on DSM5. This also wouldn't have happened
>>>> five years ago. It got copy all round the world.
>>>> Once applied psychologists become aware of how dire the evidence base
>>>> for psychotropic drugs are and how they are implicated in the greatly
>>>> reduced life expectancy of many people they won't be rushing for the
>>>> prescription pad!
>>>> The question is why did your work and others not impact more on
>>>> practice and public consciousness. The drug companies are all rowing
>>>> back from mental health research. The survivor/peer movement is
>>>> maturing and gathering strength. I think with some serious planning
>>>> and use of the media a tipping point could well be in sight. I am not
>>>> naive. The tobacco companies faught tooth and nail to carry on killing
>>>> people and we should expect something similar but the evidence is
>>>> starting to be heard?
>>>> There are loads of good psychologists critical and acritical working
>>>> hard to provide decent and non oppressive care in what you call a pig
>>>> sty. Just insulting them/dissing them by suggesting that they are just
>>>> there for the money is really unhelpful and counterproductive? A few
>>>> are but the vast majority are not.
>>>>
>>>> Richard Pemberton
>>>>
>>>> On 3/19/12, CRAIG NEWNES<[log in to unmask]>   wrote:
>>>>> Richard, I am not dissing Healy - his two volume biog The
>>>>> Psychopharmacologists is brilliant. But claiming that anti-depressants
>>>>> are
>>>>> harmful while recommending ECT for a non-entity called "depression"
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> seem that radical to me. I don't read Forum but if Tony wants to look
>>>>> back
>>>>> about five years he'll find an article by Guy Holmes and myself
> reporting
>>>>> on
>>>>> some Prescribing Rights seminars we held for qualified Clin Psychs. The
>>>>> majority wanted to be able to prescribe and 5 said, matter of factly,
> it
>>>>> was
>>>>> to "get drug co freebies." You can't build a palace from a pig-sty -
> just
>>>>> a
>>>>> nicer place for pigs to live in. I am well aware of many psychs who
> have
>>>>> found theselves in a position where their salaries pay the rent but
>>>>> disagree
>>>>> with what they or their colleagues are asked to do. Understandably they
>>>>> try
>>>>> to "change" the system from within, not unlike the Psychotherapy
> Section
>>>>> me
>>>>> electing me their Chair to follow David Smail as a token radical. I was
>>>>> saved
>>>>>    by a car accident - let's hope your salvation is less troublesome.
>>>>> C
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: richard pemberton<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, 19 March 2012, 15:27
>>>>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the corruption of medicine
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> I was well aware of that and he is overly defensive about medicines
> role
>>>>> but
>>>>> his book is really really important and backs up a lot of what you have
>>>>> been
>>>>> saying for years but it is coming from a respected professor in a
> serious
>>>>> medical school who has been part of the drug trial industry. I think
> the
>>>>> tide is turning and this scandal is starting to break out into the
>>>>> limelight. I have managed to get Whitaker doing the public lecture at
> the
>>>>> Division of Clinical Psychology Conference in Oxford in December and he
>>>>> is
>>>>> staying on for the symposium on medication and psychosis.He will also
> be
>>>>> doing a more survivor orientated event in Sussex. If you still have
>>>>> access
>>>>> to Forum you may have seen Wainwrights Ethics column on all this and
> its
>>>>> implications for the practice of psychologists who are sitting in
> mulidis
>>>>> teams and are hence party to the drugging of people with very expensive
>>>>> ineffective and dangerous drugs. The science and the data according to
>>>>> Healy
>>>>> has all
>>>>>    been systematically cooked.
>>>>> Your post is like Davids about Seligman. Its another dissing of people
>>>>> because they are doing things that add to the problem or whose value
> base
>>>>> is
>>>>> problematic/different. They both however have within their work
>>>>> contributions that point to the sorts of solutions that I thought
>>>>> critical
>>>>> psychologists are all about. Having probably the worlds best known
>>>>> psychologist saying we have screwed up in our obsession with
>>>>> psychopathology
>>>>> is remarkably helpful in my book. I could discount it because he became
>>>>> famous by doing horrible things to dogs or because his relationship
> with
>>>>> the
>>>>> American military or because there is a statue of Winston Churchill on
>>>>> the
>>>>> Penn State Campus but he is opening an important door. He clearly
> doesn't
>>>>> know how to go through it though.
>>>>> No wonder critical psychology/community psychology has sadly had little
>>>>> influence in the UK?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is
>>>>> good
>>>>>
> http://my.psychologytoday.com/blog/dsm5-in-distress/201203/am-i-dangerous-ma
> n
>>>>> Hope you are well
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Pemberton
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 2:52 PM, CRAIG NEWNES
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> David Healy is currently promoting ECT
>>>>>> C
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: richard pemberton<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 12:21
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] the corruption of medicine
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://davidhealy.org/we-need-to-talk-about-doctors he can be found on
>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pharmageddon is a very good and disturbing book. His twitter address
>>>>>> is @DavidHealey
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___________________________________
>>>>>> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post
> contact
>>>>>> Grant [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
> list,
>>>>>> visit the website:
>>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___________________________________ There is a twitter feed:
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact Grant
>>>>>> [log in to unmask] To unsubscribe or to change your details on
> this
>>>>>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website:
>>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>>>>> ___________________________________ There is a twitter feed:
>>>>> http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact Grant
>>>>> [log in to unmask] To unsubscribe or to change your details on
> this
>>>>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website:
>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>>>>>
>>>>> ___________________________________
>>>>> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post
> contact
>>>>> Grant [log in to unmask]
>>>>> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list,
>>>>> visit the website:
>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>>>> ___________________________________
>>>> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact
>>>> Grant [log in to unmask]
>>>> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list,
>>>> visit the website:
>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________
>>>> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact
>>>> Grant [log in to unmask]
>>>> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list,
>>>> visit the website:
>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>>> ___________________________________
>>> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact
>>> Grant [log in to unmask]
>>> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list,
>>> visit the website:
>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>>>
>>> ___________________________________
>>> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact
>>> Grant [log in to unmask]
>>> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list,
>>> visit the website:
>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>> ___________________________________
>> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact
> Grant [log in to unmask]
>> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list,
> visit the website:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
> --
> ********************************************************
> John Cromby
> Psychology, SSEHS
> Loughborough University
> Loughborough, Leics
> LE11 3TU England UK
> Tel: 01509 223000
> Personal webpage:http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~hujc4/
> ********************************************************
>
> ___________________________________
> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact
> Grant [log in to unmask]
> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list,
> visit the website:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>
> ___________________________________
> There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact Grant [log in to unmask]
> To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK

-- 
********************************************************
John Cromby
Psychology, SSEHS
Loughborough University
Loughborough, Leics
LE11 3TU England UK
Tel: 01509 223000
Personal webpage:http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~hujc4/
********************************************************

___________________________________
There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK (to post contact Grant [log in to unmask]
To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK

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