Hi Wynn,
That's fair enough.
I will add one final point though - many people working in STEM say that
the reason they got into working in that area is because of an
inspirational teacher or lecturer - to me, that is what science
communication is all about.
Rhys
--
Rhys Phillips
Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH
x4704
-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wynn Abbott
Sent: 28 February 2012 00:05
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
Hi Ravi - I think this is a relevant debate but I don't have anything
more to add to it right now. Nothing in your message below persuades me
to change my personal definition of what a science communicator is (as
defined by this list and my understanding of the field). You say that
everyone has the potential to be communicator as if that contradicts
what I said - it doesn't. I'm talking in the context of what this list
is about - science and 'the public'. Your discussing communication
within academia / a field / a profession.
I'm out of this for now.
Best,
Wynn
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jon Turney
Sent: 27 February 2012 23:06
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
Hi Ravi,
point taken - I was joking, honest...
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Ravi Kapur <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Hi Jon,
I don't normally weigh into these kind of things, and tend to watch
these spontaneous dialogues unfold from afar, with fascination and
amusement. But on this occasion, I feel a need to chip in to to say what
a shame I think it would be to close down this thread at this point. It
could well be that the exchange has runs its course, and no one has
anything to add, but I think it would be wrong to constrain it.
I do not know Rhys or Wynn (apologies if I should), but Rhys has made
some very pertinent points in his last post which I think get to the
heart of what we should all be thinking about as science communicators.
These are important points in their own right, which have nothing to do
with his original 'error' in posting the job ad, for which he has
already apologised. Professionalising science communication is
important, but is not an end in itself. We (science communicators and
society) will be a a lot worse off if we start to preclude and dismiss
all other forms of science communication, be it from teachers, parents
or practicing academics. I agree with Rhys that every scientist and
engineer is a potential communicator (whether good or bad) - it's in the
nature of the job to articulate an idea with clarity, to prove, to
demonstrate (albeit normally with specialist language to specialist
audiences) - and most have the potential to be good (public)
communicators given the right nudging, training and encouragement. I
gave a talk to this effect to the Young Physicists conference a few
years ago, and most of the young scientists in the room certainly seemed
to recognise themselves in these terms.
Continuing to perpetuate the view that most scientists are simply not
communicators unless they are professional 'science communicators'
serves no purpose other than to a) create a self-fulfilling negative
presumption which young scientists then carry through their careers, and
thus b) to create jobs for 'professional' science communicators. These
are not in themselves worthwhile societal goals, and are
counter-productive to what the point of science communication is in the
first place.
I agree with Jenny's suggestion for civility on the list, and avoiding
on-list public rebukes. But restricting an important discussion on this
sort of topic does not seem necessary to me.
Regards,
Ravi.
Ravi Kapur
Managing Director
Imperative Space and GovEd Communications
e: [log in to unmask]
w: www.imperativespace.com
w: www.goved.co.uk
From: Jon Turney <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: "psci-com: on public engagement with science"
<[log in to unmask]>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:53:18 +0000
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
This correspondence is now closed (Ed.)
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Phillips, Rhys <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Hi Wynn,
> Everyone who sings is not a singer.
I disagree. They may not be a professional singer. Or even a good
singer. But they are undeniably a singer at some level. I, like most of
us I suspect, eat food - just because I may not eat "good" food or
because I don't eat as my profession, does not mean I am not an 'eater'.
> A 'science communicator' (as defined by this list and pretty much
everyone I know in the field) is someone who communicates science to the
public / lay audiences.
As a job title / description, I agree that this is generally the
accepted meaning. But for me, as someone who works as a research
engineer and spends a lot of voluntary time communicating science to
public and school audiences, I find the task of communicating science to
ANY audience enjoyable and interesting - I get pleasure and enjoyment
out of explaining science to very young children right up to my peers. I
suspect that for many on the list, they enjoy the task of communicating
science full stop, no matter who the audience is. So it would seem
reasonable that some people who are on a list of those interested in
science communication (whichever meaning you use) may also be interested
in a specific form of science communication, i.e. lecturing.
I admit that the title of the list does specify 'public engagement' and
in this description, my post did not fit. But as I said, it is not the
only role that has been advertised here which is not public engagement.
> Otherwise they would have remained in academia and pursued a
research/lecture career which requires no science communication
training.
Well that's simply not true - there are several reasons why someone
might leave an academic career but still only want to communicate their
thoughts to peers and former colleagues.
It is interesting though because on another similar list, there is a
discussion about favourite science communicators - and many have
suggested parents and teachers in response to this. Neither of those
would fit with the definition of communicating to a public audience.
Essentially, communicating is an art form and like many art forms, who
fits the description of doing it is subjective. Personally, I would not
call many of the bands in the charts today 'musicians' but they are
clearly making music and so undeniably, they are musicians, no matter
what my opinion is of their music.
--
Rhys Phillips
Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH
x4704
-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wynn Abbott
Sent: 27 February 2012 19:59
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
Hi Rhys -
Everyone who sings is not a singer.
A 'science communicator' (as defined by this list and pretty much
everyone I know in the field) is someone who communicates science to the
public / lay audiences.
It is not someone who solely communicates with their students or peers.
Otherwise they would have remained in academia and pursued a
research/lecture career which requires no science communication
training.
You're clearly fixed on your views here so probably best to end the
debate here...
Best,
Wynn
-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phillips, Rhys
Sent: 27 February 2012 19:42
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
Hmmm.
"This whole 'I'm communicating science therefore I'm a science
communicator' argument doesn't really holds up if you're only ever
communicating with your students and your peer group."
I'm afraid I disagree with this part of your email - the words are right
there. It's a bit like saying someone who writes songs cannot be
described as a song writer, just because they only write books for a
particular audience.
"There's nothing in this lecturer vacancy description which obliges the
post holder to do anything whatsoever with the public.
This list is for those who engage the public - the title of this list is
'psci-com: on public engagement with science'?"
That bit I accept - as I said before, it was my own misjudgement to
submit it to this list. But I still maintain that it is a science
communication role, just one not suited for this distribution list.
I have to say that given some roles previously mentioned here are for
engaging with specific groups of people (e.g. schools within a classroom
setting which to me does not count as members of the public), that my
impression was that "public engagement" is a) quite a subjective term
and b) not one strictly upheld on the list, hence why I thought the post
was suitable.
Once again, sorry!!
--
Rhys Phillips
Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH
x4704
-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of London Science Festival
Sent: 27 February 2012 19:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
This whole 'I'm communicating science therefore I'm a science
communicator' argument doesn't really holds up if you're only ever
communicating with your students and your peer group.
There's nothing in this lecturer vacancy description which obliges the
post holder to do anything whatsoever with the public.
This list is for those who engage the public - the title of this list is
'psci-com: on public engagement with science'?
Best,
Wynn
-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phillips, Rhys
Sent: 27 February 2012 19:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
Hi Francis,
The ability to communicate may well come last on the criteria.
However if someone is interested in communicating science and lecturing
is a form of communication, then surely that same person may well be
interested in lecturing on a science subject?
Rhys
--
Rhys Phillips
Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH
x4704
-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Francis Sedgemore
Sent: 27 February 2012 18:51
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
As MK says, the ability to communicate normally comes last on the list
of criteria used to assess candidates for most university teaching
positions. What matters is research experience and potential, and for
that reason lectureships should not be advertised here. Send them
instead to jobs.ac.uk. Teaching fellowships and the like are another
matter.
Some of us professional science communicators are recovering academics,
but all it takes is one or two years out of the loop, and one's
university research and teaching career is toast.
Francis
--
Dr Francis Sedgemore
journalist and science writer
www.sedgemore.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:PSCI-
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phillips, Rhys
> Sent: 27 February 2012 18:08
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy
>
> Hi Wynn,
>
> I agree that those roles are a vital part of science communication. I
was using
> those examples to make my point (perhaps not very well!) that just
because
> your job doesn't involve actively presenting at a science museum or
giving
> talks to schools for example, that doesn't mean it isn't science
> communication. Relevant press jobs are of course a form of science
> communication.
>
> But to me, so is lecturing on science topics - lecturing by definition
is a form of
> communication. Therefore I don't see how it does not count as Science
> Communication. I don't think the institutional strategy / mission
statement is
> even needed - to me it is fairly simple. If the position was purely a
research
> position then that would perhaps be different.
>
> Rhys
>
> --
> Rhys Phillips
> Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH
> x4704
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Author: The Rough Guide to the Future (2010) - shortlisted for Winton
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