medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: James Ginther <[log in to unmask]>
> mea culpa. It was PASCHAL II not Pius II. Thanks, Tom, for pointing out
the problem.
> At least I got the first letter correct. :-)
don't sell yourself Short.
you got the "s" in there, too.
that's 50% of "Pius" you got --and 2/7ths of Paschal (but, 1/3rd of Pascal).
you're on a Roll (but you'd best not quit your Day Job just yet).
of course, i got 100% of my Innocent 2 correct; but it was surely my crack
about Pious Innocents which probably rattled you.
so, mea grosso culpa.
c
(who can't help but think that, if this list were Twittered --instead of being
written by human beinks-- these kinds of problems wouldn't come up at all.)
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Thomas Izbicki
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > Surely the chronology is off here. Wrong pope by a long time.
> > Tom Izbicki
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From: *"Christopher Crockett" <[log in to unmask]>
> > *To: *[log in to unmask]
> > *Sent: *Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:50:49 AM
> >
> > *Subject: *Re: [M-R] training of a priest
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > From: James Ginther <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > > The transition [away from clerical marriage] was quite difficult, at
> > least
> > in England and Normandy.
> > >There is an interesting epistolary exchange between Anselm of Canterbury
> > and Pius II over what to do with the married priests in England. Anselm
> > points out that if he enforced the law, there would be very few priests
> > around. Pius II responds that he should move slowly, and basically let
the
> > current "married" (incontinent) priests die out and replace them with
> > celibate ones. A clear indication, I think, that the papacy of Pius II
did
> > not conceive of clerical priesthood as a heresy (what kind of pope would
> > suggest that you just let the heretics die out, rather than impose
> > appropriate discipline?).
> >
> >
> > the modest Pius was also suggesting the use of a dodgy compromise which
was
> > --i think-- common enough when dealing with secular (or regular)
> > institutions
> > which had been reformed: allow the canons (or backslid monks) of the
house
> > to
> > retain their benefices for the rest of their lives provided that they
live
> > a
> > regular life, put their wives/concubines away and, basically, keep It in
> > their
> > pants.
> >
> > i assume that this was done --in large part-- because "reform" was
> > difficult
> > enough to pull off, esp. in the face of what was frequently considerable
> > local
> > (secular and, perhaps, ecclesiastical) opposition, without the added
> > burden of
> > having thrown a bunch of second sons of the local nobility out of their
> > jobs
> > in the bargain. it was naturally therefore preferred to allow them to
stay
> > on, "in caritate," if they agreed to Clean Up their Act.
> >
> > i have been intending to axe the Larnéd list about this, since it is
what
> > happened at the collegial of St. Mary Magdeleine at Chateaudun, when it
was
> > reformed/regularized c. 1130 --this stipulation re the old canons is
> > specifically mentioned in a bull of Innocent 2 (another modest fellow,
> > apparently) in 1131 which confirms the work of Bishop Godfrey of Chartres
> > (who
> > also happened to be a papal legate, which didn't hurt).
> >
> > i've seen this kind of thing before, as part of some reform, somewhere,
but
> > can't recall where.
> >
> > i'll post the revelent text of Inn2 later, if i can, as well as some more
> > factoids surrounding the case.
> >
> > comments from the list will be, as always, most welcome.
> >
> > > If university education was not possible (and it was expensive--plus ca
> > change), then in England the rural deans (on the continent archpriests
> >
> > what the devil is an "archpriest"?
> >
> > i've never come across such a term in my French documents.
> >
> > though we do have some --a very few-- instances of "rural deans" in the
> > 11th-12th c. charters (only recognizable because they are style "dean"
and
> > it's clear that they are not the Dean of the cathedral chapter).
> >
> > c
> >
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>
>
> --
> ----------
> James R. Ginther, PhD
> Professor of Medieval Theology
> & Director,
> Center for Digital Theology
> Saint Louis University
> -------------------------
> [log in to unmask]
> Faculty Page: Departmental
> Page<https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/james-ginther/>
> <https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/james-ginther/>Research Blog:
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> <http://digital-editor.blogspot.com>
>
> "Blessed are the Geeks for they shall encode the Earth"
>
> "...debet esse oratio devota, ne mens sit in foro dum os psallit in choro."
> - Robert Grosseteste
>
> "Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if
> both are frozen." -Edward V. Berard
>
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