Lara,
Many thanks for the fascinating links - I'm sure that like many others on here I was sure such information was available but had never taken the time to go looking for it!
On a bit of a tangent, I typed in Grimsby just to see what popped up, and have found it embroiled in a long running debate on Parliamentary Reform and voting procedures! I knew that a storm had been kicked up locally surrounding this, but had no idea how much it had been debated in the capital!
The best quote (or soundbite as we'd call it now) so far has to be: "In what state is poor Grimsby, mutilated Grimsby! population 3,064 in 1821: 304 voters formerly, now thirty-four" by TRH Mr Charles Sibthorp <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/search/grimsby?sort=date&speaker=mr-charles-sibthorp> on March 30, 1831.
Many thanks again,
Hugh
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer
Development Management
Origin One, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216
Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx>
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records on behalf of Lara Band
Sent: Sat 28/01/2012 14:37
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
Hello,
Hansard debates might be interesting to look at, if there was any contemporary discussion on building a system of guardhouses - though it is only from 1803 onwards
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/
Doing a quick search I found the following - using the search terms: French prisoners and French prisoners barracks finds, for example,
NAVY ESTIMATES. ADMIRALTY COURT
HC Deb 22 March 1811 vol 19 cc476-93
Mr. Wharton replied, that the whole sum necessary for those particular barracks would be 131,000l. Among the other items there were 12,000l. for the erection of depots for the French prisoners/of whom there were a great increase.
and
HC Deb 14 June 1811 vol 20 cc634-9
An Account of the number of French Prisoners of War in England being presented to the House
Mr. Rose took occasion to observe, that it would appear from these documents that the total number of French Prisoners remaining in England amounted to 45,933, and that the returns of the sick were 321. The number on parole were 2,710, and the sick 165.
Debates later in the century reference buildings for the housing of French prisoners (though of course, might already reflecting local myth) e.g.:
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
HL Deb 26 July 1885 vol 300 cc212-3
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN said, he rose to ask a Question of the noble Viscount the Under Secretary for War about the military prison of Glencorse, the condition of which he ventured two years ago to bring to the attention of their Lordships. This prison was built about 100 years ago for the reception of French prisoners taken during the war with France, and was constructed entirely of wood, except the stone staircase in the centre which connected the two wings, and the wood was tarred over. It was nothing more nor less than a fire trap.
or
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
HL Deb 12 December 1893 vol 19 cc1151-6
EARL WEMYSS said [...] In Ireland, the same thing was to be seen at Cork, where there were some wooden buildings erected for the reception of French prisoners during the Napoleonic wars, and certainly about 80 years old. Barrack accommodation being required, those buildings were tested and found to be perfectly sound; they were tarred over and built on a stone or brick foundation. The sergeants and their families who lodge there were delighted with them, while those in the stone huts were complaining and wanted to go into the wooden ones.
It might be that there was some debate on setting French prisoners to work, or conscripting them. Apologies if Hansard is a well known source anyway, I discovered it during some research on workhouses and love it. It's a great resource on many levels, I could wander round in there for hours.....
Best Regards
Lara Band
My first post here so perhaps should introduce myself:
recent MA Historical Archaeology (DL) graduate from the University of Leicester; field archaeologist but currently working for Ålands Maritime Museum.
On 27/01/2012 15:55, CARLISLE, Philip wrote:
Hi Chris
See http://www.1812privateers.org/crimmin.pdf
Phil
Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
Data Standards Unit, Designations Department
English Heritage
The Engine House
Fire Fly Avenue
Swindon
SN2 2EH
Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824
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-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
Sent: 27 January 2012 13:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
Hi Phil,
These numbers sound a bit like those given in some sources for the numbers of Persian troops who fought against Alexander the Great at Gaugamela.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Philip CARLISLE
Sent: 27 January 2012 11:56
To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
Dear all,
Considering that between 100,000 and 250,000 French prisoners of war from the Napoleonic Wars were held in Britain during the period (depending on which source you read) I'd think it was highly likely that at least some were put to work on building projects (other than their own prisons).
Phil
Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
Data Standards Unit, Designations Department
English Heritage
The Engine House
Fire Fly Avenue
Swindon
SN2 2EH
Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824
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-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
Sent: 27 January 2012 11:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
Hugh,
Call me an old cynic if you must, but as a well-known historian once commented, "Most people, in fact, will not take the trouble in finding out the truth, but are much more inclined to accept the first story they hear."
Whilst you can't rule out all tales of French prisoners being used for this kind of engineering project, just how many French prisoners did Britain take in the 1790s and early part of the C18th?
Britain was not an major land power. For most of the wars with France, the main sources of French prisoners would have been:- a. Those captured in clearing-up operations on land in the West Indies, Egypt and a handful of other places beyond Europe. I doubt whether there would have been too many of these.
b. Captured sailors. Bearing in mind the Royal Navy's chronic shortage of seamen, I suspect that the navy would have tried to use as many of these as possible on British ships.
c. From the Spanish peninsular after 1809.
Could these sources really have been sufficient to carry out all the engineering works attributed to them and to fill the cells in Dartmoor?
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hugh Winfield
Sent: 27 January 2012 09:33
To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
Chris,
Surely being post-boom it would make it more likely? I would have thought that engineers desperate to finish off abandoned or over-budget projects would have moved heaven and high water to get their hands on large labour pools that they didn't have to pay! Just a thought, no evidence obviously.
Hugh
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer Development Management Origin One, Origin Way Europarc, Grimsby North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216
Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelcaspx <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx> <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx>
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records on behalf of Chris Wardle
Sent: Fri 27/01/2012 09:28
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
Hi Vince,
I seem to dimly recall, from my days of 'A' level history, that the main era of 'Canal Mania', when investor were eager to put money into making rivers navigable and building canals lasted from the early 1770s into the late 1780s. By the time the French Revolutionary Wars broke out in the 1790s the enthusiasm for canal building was cooling off. Many venues, such as the ill-fated Charnwood Forest Canal here in Leicestershire, having proven to be huge loss makers.
So it seems likely that most of the stories of the involvement of French prisoners of war in improvements in navigation are probably untrue.
Chris Wardle
City Archaeologist
Planning & Economic Development
A11, New Walk Centre
Leicester. LE1 6ZG
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vince Russett
Sent: 27 January 2012 09:11
To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
Morning, chums!
And while we're on this subject, I've often heard stories of major engineering works (river course modification etc) being carried out by Napoleonic prisoners of war - specifically, the story is told of straightening of the Cheddar Yeo by such. Does anyone know if there is any truth in these stories?
Vince
Vince Russett
County Archaeologist
Development Management Group
North Somerset Council
Our Historic Environment Record is now on-line: Go to the North Somerset web site (http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/> <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/> <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/> ) then use the tabs Environment / Conservation / Archaeology/ Historic Environment Record. Enjoy!
Landline: 01934 426456
Mobile: 07919 265644
Please note my work hours are usually 8am to 4pm -----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini
Sent: 27 January 2012 08:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
Hi Chris
I assume you've picked the Civic Trusts collective brain to see where they got the info?
not heard of anything similar up here
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
Historic Environment Record Officer
Durham County Council
Tel: 0191 3708840
Fax: 0191 3708897
[log in to unmask]
VPN 7777 8840
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster
Sent: 27 January 2012 08:34
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Friday (early) morning question
In a street in Wells, called Guard House Lane, is a plaque erected by the civic society that reads:
Guardhouse Lane takes its name from its eighteenth-century guardhouse -
the tall building 50 metres down on the right-hand side. The
Napoleonic Wars of the late 1790s and early 1800s saw a new warfare of
mass armies and large fleets. This made necessary the first serious
attempt to house prisoners-of-war in specially built prisons or prison
camps, as on Dartmoor or at Norman Cross near Peterborough. Captured
French soldiers and sailors were landed at Dorset ports, and marched about 20 miles a day, lodging en route at specially constructed
staging-posts. Wells Guardhouse was the last overnight stop for
other ranks before reaching the newly enlarged Stapleton Prison at Bristol.
Has anyone else come across these - it suggests a semi-national system - but I can find no other information about it/them.
Chris Webster
Historic Environment Record
Somerset County Council
Somerset Heritage Centre
Brunel Way
Taunton
TA2 6SF
01823 347434
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