JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for HERFORUM Archives


HERFORUM Archives

HERFORUM Archives


HERFORUM@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

HERFORUM Home

HERFORUM Home

HERFORUM  January 2012

HERFORUM January 2012

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Friday (early) morning question

From:

"Winfield, Hugh" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Issues related to Historic Environment Records <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:31:46 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (377 lines)

Lara,
 
Many thanks for the fascinating links - I'm sure that like many others on here I was sure such information was available but had never taken the time to go looking for it!
 
On a bit of a tangent, I typed in Grimsby just to see what popped up, and have found it embroiled in a long running debate on Parliamentary Reform and voting procedures! I knew that a storm had been kicked up locally surrounding this, but had no idea how much it had been debated in the capital!
The best quote (or soundbite as we'd call it now) so far has to be: "In what state is poor Grimsby, mutilated Grimsby! population 3,064 in 1821: 304 voters formerly, now thirty-four" by TRH Mr Charles Sibthorp <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/search/grimsby?sort=date&speaker=mr-charles-sibthorp>  on March 30, 1831.
 
Many thanks again,
 
Hugh
 
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer 
Development Management
Origin One, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216 

Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx> 


________________________________

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records on behalf of Lara Band
Sent: Sat 28/01/2012 14:37
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question


Hello, 

Hansard debates might be interesting to look at, if there was any contemporary discussion on building a system of guardhouses - though it is only from 1803 onwards
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/

Doing a quick search I found the following - using the search terms: French prisoners and French prisoners barracks finds, for example, 
NAVY ESTIMATES. ADMIRALTY COURT
HC Deb 22 March 1811 vol 19 cc476-93
Mr. Wharton replied, that the whole sum necessary for those particular barracks would be 131,000l. Among the other items there were 12,000l. for the erection of depots for the French prisoners/of whom there were a great increase.

and

HC Deb 14 June 1811 vol 20 cc634-9
An Account of the number of French Prisoners of War in England being presented to the House
Mr. Rose took occasion to observe, that it would appear from these documents that the total number of French Prisoners remaining in England amounted to 45,933, and that the returns of the sick were 321. The number on parole were 2,710, and the sick 165.

Debates later in the century reference buildings for the housing of French prisoners (though of course, might already reflecting local myth) e.g.:

QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
HL Deb 26 July 1885 vol 300 cc212-3
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN said, he rose to ask a Question of the noble Viscount the Under Secretary for War about the military prison of Glencorse, the condition of which he ventured two years ago to bring to the attention of their Lordships. This prison was built about 100 years ago for the reception of French prisoners taken during the war with France, and was constructed entirely of wood, except the stone staircase in the centre which connected the two wings, and the wood was tarred over. It was nothing more nor less than a fire trap.

or 

QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
HL Deb 12 December 1893 vol 19 cc1151-6 
EARL WEMYSS said [...] In Ireland, the same thing was to be seen at Cork, where there were some wooden buildings erected for the reception of French prisoners during the Napoleonic wars, and certainly about 80 years old. Barrack accommodation being required, those buildings were tested and found to be perfectly sound; they were tarred over and built on a stone or brick foundation. The sergeants and their families who lodge there were delighted with them, while those in the stone huts were complaining and wanted to go into the wooden ones. 


It might be that there was some debate on setting French prisoners to work, or conscripting them.  Apologies if Hansard is a well known source anyway, I discovered it during some research on workhouses and love it.  It's a great resource on many levels, I could wander round in there for hours.....

Best Regards
Lara Band
My first post here so perhaps should introduce myself:
recent MA Historical Archaeology (DL) graduate from the University of Leicester; field archaeologist but currently working for Ålands Maritime Museum.




On 27/01/2012 15:55, CARLISLE, Philip wrote: 

	Hi Chris
	
	See http://www.1812privateers.org/crimmin.pdf
	
	
	Phil
	
	Phil Carlisle
	
	Data Standards Supervisor
	
	Data Standards Unit, Designations Department
	
	English Heritage
	
	The Engine House
	
	Fire Fly Avenue
	
	Swindon
	
	SN2 2EH
	
	Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824
	
	
	
	http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/
	
	The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent.
	
	Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
	
	P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
	Sent: 27 January 2012 13:18
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
	
	Hi Phil,
	
	These numbers sound a bit like those given in some sources for the numbers of Persian troops who fought against Alexander the Great at Gaugamela.
	
	Chris
	
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Philip CARLISLE
	Sent: 27 January 2012 11:56
	To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle
	Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
	
	Dear all,
	Considering that between 100,000 and 250,000 French prisoners of war from the Napoleonic Wars were held in Britain during the period (depending on which source you read) I'd think it was highly likely that at least some were put to work on building projects (other than their own prisons).
	
	Phil
	
	
	Phil Carlisle
	
	Data Standards Supervisor
	
	Data Standards Unit, Designations Department
	
	English Heritage
	
	The Engine House
	
	Fire Fly Avenue
	
	Swindon
	
	SN2 2EH
	
	Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824
	
	
	
	http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/
	
	The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent.
	
	Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
	
	P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
	Sent: 27 January 2012 11:25
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
	
	Hugh,
	
	Call me an old cynic if you must, but as a well-known historian once commented, "Most people, in fact, will not take the trouble in finding out the truth, but are much more inclined to accept the first story they hear."
	
	Whilst you can't rule out all tales of French prisoners being used for this kind of engineering project, just how many French prisoners did Britain take in the 1790s and early part of the C18th?
	
	Britain was not an major land power. For most of the wars with France, the main sources of French prisoners would have been:- a. Those captured in clearing-up operations on land in the West Indies, Egypt and a handful of other places beyond Europe. I doubt whether there would have been too many of these.
	b. Captured sailors. Bearing in mind the Royal Navy's chronic shortage of seamen, I suspect that the navy would have tried to use as many of these as possible on British ships.
	c. From the Spanish peninsular after 1809.
	
	Could these sources really have been sufficient to carry out all the engineering works attributed to them and to fill the cells in Dartmoor?
	
	Chris
	
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hugh Winfield
	Sent: 27 January 2012 09:33
	To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle
	Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
	
	Chris,
	
	Surely being post-boom it would make it more likely? I would have thought that engineers desperate to finish off abandoned or over-budget projects would have moved heaven and high water to get their hands on large labour pools that they didn't have to pay! Just a thought, no evidence obviously.
	
	Hugh
	
	Hugh Winfield
	Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer Development Management Origin One, Origin Way Europarc, Grimsby North East Lincolnshire
	DN37 9TZ
	Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216
	
	Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelcaspx <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx> <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx> 
	
	
	________________________________
	
	From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records on behalf of Chris Wardle
	Sent: Fri 27/01/2012 09:28
	To: Winfield, Hugh
	Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
	
	
	
	Hi Vince,
	
	I seem to dimly recall, from my days of 'A' level history, that the main era of 'Canal Mania', when investor were eager to put money into making rivers navigable and building canals lasted from the early 1770s into the late 1780s. By the time the French Revolutionary Wars broke out in the 1790s the enthusiasm for canal building was cooling off. Many venues, such as the ill-fated Charnwood Forest Canal here in Leicestershire, having proven to be huge loss makers.
	
	So it seems likely that most  of the stories of the involvement of French prisoners of war in improvements in navigation are probably untrue.
	
	Chris Wardle
	City Archaeologist
	Planning & Economic Development
	A11, New Walk Centre
	Leicester. LE1 6ZG
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vince Russett
	Sent: 27 January 2012 09:11
	To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle
	Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
	
	Morning, chums!
	
	And while we're on this subject, I've often heard stories of major engineering works (river course modification etc) being carried out by Napoleonic prisoners of war - specifically, the story is told of straightening of the Cheddar Yeo by such. Does anyone know if there is any truth in these stories?
	
	Vince
	
	Vince Russett
	County Archaeologist
	Development Management Group
	North Somerset Council
	
	Our Historic Environment Record is now on-line: Go to the North Somerset web site (http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/>  <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/> <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/>  ) then use the tabs Environment / Conservation / Archaeology/ Historic Environment Record. Enjoy!
	
	Landline: 01934 426456
	Mobile:    07919 265644
	
	Please note my work hours are usually 8am to 4pm -----Original Message-----
	From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini
	Sent: 27 January 2012 08:56
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question
	
	Hi Chris
	
	I assume you've picked the Civic Trusts collective brain to see where they got the info?
	
	not heard of anything similar up here
	
	best wishes
	
	Nick Boldrini
	
	Historic Environment Record Officer
	Durham County Council
	Tel: 0191 3708840
	Fax: 0191 3708897
	[log in to unmask]
	VPN 7777 8840
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster
	Sent: 27 January 2012 08:34
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Friday (early) morning question
	
	In a street in Wells, called Guard House Lane, is a plaque erected by the civic society that reads:
	
	Guardhouse Lane takes its name from its eighteenth-century guardhouse  -
	the tall building 50 metres down on the right-hand side.    The
	Napoleonic Wars of the late 1790s and early 1800s saw a new warfare of
	mass armies and large fleets.   This made necessary the first serious
	attempt to house prisoners-of-war in specially built prisons or prison
	camps, as on Dartmoor or at Norman Cross near Peterborough.    Captured
	French soldiers and sailors were landed at Dorset ports, and marched about 20 miles a day, lodging en route at specially constructed
	staging-posts.     Wells Guardhouse was the last overnight stop for
	other ranks before reaching the newly enlarged Stapleton Prison at Bristol.
	
	Has anyone else come across these - it suggests a semi-national system - but I can find no other information about it/them.
	
	Chris Webster
	Historic Environment Record
	Somerset County Council
	Somerset Heritage Centre
	Brunel Way
	Taunton
	TA2 6SF
	
	01823 347434
	
	Online HER: www.somerset.gov.uk/her
	
	This communication is intended solely for the person (s) or organisation to whom it is addressed.  It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not the intended recipient (s), you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender and copy the message to [log in to unmask]
	
	Individuals are advised that by replying to, or sending an e-mail message to Somerset County Council, you accept that you have no explicit or implicit expectation of privacy.
	
	In line with the Surveillance and Monitoring Policy, any e-mail messages (and attachments) transmitted over the Council's network may be subject to scrutiny.
	
	________________________________
	
	
	Help protect our environment by only printing this email if absolutely necessary. The information it contains and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are only intended for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may be unlawful for you to use, share or copy the information, if you are not authorised to do so. If you receive this email by mistake, please inform the person who sent it at the above address and then delete the email from your system. Durham County Council takes reasonable precautions to ensure that its emails are virus free. However, we do not accept responsibility for any losses incurred as a result of viruses we might transmit and recommend that you should use your own virus checking procedures.
	
	Keeping in touch
	Do it online - visit our website at www.n-somerset.gov.uk <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/>  Council Connect - for all streets, open spaces and environmental protection enquiries call 01934 888 802 or email [log in to unmask]
	Care Connect - for all adult social services enquiries call 01275 888 801 or email [log in to unmask] For all other enquiries call 01934 888 888 in office hours, or, in an emergency, our out of hours service 01934 622 669.
	
	Privacy and confidentiality notice
	--------------------------------------
	The information contained in this email transmission is intended by North Somerset Council for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. If you have received this email transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email. Any views expressed within this message or any other associated files are the views and expressions of the individual and not North Somerset Council.
	North Somerset Council takes all reasonable precautions to ensure that no viruses are transmitted with any electronic communications sent, however the council can accept no responsibility for any loss or damage resulting directly or indirectly from the use of this email or any contents or attachments.
	
	
	
	<html>
	<p>
	<p>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>
	<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none'><span
	style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Webdings;mso-bidi-font-family:Webdings;
	color:green'>P </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
	color:green'>Reduce your environmental footprint, please do not print this email unless you really need to. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
	
	<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none'><span
	style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
	<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This
	electronic message contains information from North East Lincolnshire Council which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please telephone or email the number(s) or address above immediately. Activity and use of the North East Lincolnshire email system is monitored to secure its effective operation and for other lawful business purposes. Communications using this system will also be monitored and may be recorded to secure effective operation and for other lawful business purposes.
	Scanned by Anti Virus Software</span></p> </html>
	
	This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available.
	
	Portico: your gateway to information on sites in the National Heritage Collection; have a look and tell us what you think. http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/archives-and-collections/portico/
	
	This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available.
	
	Portico: your gateway to information on sites in the National Heritage Collection; have a look and tell us what you think. http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/archives-and-collections/portico/
	
	


<html>
<p>
<p>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Webdings;mso-bidi-font-family:Webdings;
color:green'>P </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:green'>Reduce your environmental footprint, please do not print this
email unless you really need to. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none'><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This
electronic message contains information from North East Lincolnshire Council
which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended
recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the
contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this
electronic message in error, please telephone or email the number(s) or address
above immediately. Activity and use of the North East Lincolnshire email system
is monitored to secure its effective operation and for other lawful business
purposes. Communications using this system will also be monitored and may be
recorded to secure effective operation and for other lawful business purposes.
Scanned by Anti Virus Software</span></p>
</html>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager