I was fortunate enough to be able to buy a copy of Abu Sitta's atlas when I
was in Hebron earlier. I think it is still available if anybody wants one
(about 30 UKP I think) - I can probably find an email address if you are
interested

See also
http://www.bookbutler.com/search.html;jsessionid=A62BA05945EDFD0D83A93334685B154B.node01?pageNr=1&showMore=false&sortBy=salesrank&searchFor=sitta+atlas+palestine&searchBy=keyword&searchIn=uk&shipTo=gb&amountIn=gbp

JB

PS: There's a 2nd hand 'leather bound' one at Amazon for 29 UKP - see
http://www.bookbutler.com/compare.html?searchFor=0954903420&amountIn=gbp&shipTo=gb&searchIn=uk&zip=

and it's 20 UKP for this one

The Return Journey: A Guide to the Depopulated and Present Palestinian Towns
and Villages and Holy Sites in English, Arabic and Hebrew
On 11 October 2011 00:24, <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Apologies for the delay. But Alison's message did suggest that data, as
> opposed to non-statistically based arguments might still be posted on this
> topic.
>
>
>
> A couple of colleagues have provided me with some evidence which might be
> of interest. This sheds light both on the origins of one of the disputed
> figures (of Palestinian refugees), and on the difficulty of obtaining the
> sort of more precise estimates which would no doubt be preferable if only it
> were possible.
>
>
>
> i) From the "Atlas of Palestine" by Salman Abu Sitta , one of the most
> authoritative and carefully researched sources:
> "The figure frequently quoted for the 1948 refugees is 726,800, often
> approximated to 750,000. This is erroneous. The quoted figure of 726,000
> comes from the UN Conciliation Commission on Palestine (UNCCP). This figure
> suffers from two defects:(a) It is based on Village Statistics(1945) and
> needs to be updated four years to 1948: and (b) it uses the low figure of
> 53,550 for the Beersheba district in 1931. When adjusted, the figure of
> 726,800 becomes 875,000 from main villages, leaving out secondary villages.
> It just falls short of Janet Abu-Lughod democratic analysis of population in
> Jewish-held areas. She estimated this population to vary between 890,000 and
> 904,000. When correcting this figure for Beersheba, by adding 36,447, this
> range becomes 926,647 to 940,649, which is closer to our figure of 935,000.
>
> Even Israel's Foreign Ministry in 1950 referred to the UNRWA figure of
> 726,000 as 'meticulous', and thought 'the real number closer to 800,000'.
> But officially, Israel stuck to the lower figure of 520,000-530,000' to
> minimise the numbers for the refugee returns if they were obliged to accept
> them - which of course they never did!"
>
>
>
> It is worth mentioning that Abu Sitta's painstaking Atlas was a response to
> the Israeli attempt to remove from all maps and so eventually from memory
> the names and locations of hundreds of Palestinian villages that were
> deliberately obliterated post 1948.
>
>
>
> ii) For those who want the most reliable contemporary data regarding
> Israel's policies and especially the occupation, the best websites are
>
> http://www.btselem.org/statistics <
> https://exchange.lse.ac.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.btselem.org/statistics
> >
> http://www.badil.org/en/resources-for-visitors-journalists-a-activists <
> http://www.badil.org/en/resources-for-visitors-journalists-a-activists>
>
>
>
> Btselem and Badil are two highly reputable voluntary NGOs, one based in
> Israel, the other in the West Bank:
>
>
>
> B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied
> Territories
>
> is the place to go for statistics on fatalities and much more.
>
>
>
> BADIL Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights
>
> Is the place to go for refugee statistics and much else.
>
>
>
> It should be said that the figures you will find there will tend to confirm
> the gross disparities identified in the table which started this
> correspondence, tho not the precise figures in that table.
>
>
>
> Jonathan Rosenhead
>
> LSE
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Från: email list for Radical Statistics genom Macfarlane, Alison
> Skickat: fr 9/30/2011 7:58
> Till: [log in to unmask]
> Ämne: Re: Israel and Palestine
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> Jane's suggestion echoes what I was just considering, as the group's
> 'list-owner'. This discussion started with some dodgy statistics and moved
> on to a thorough discussion of the problems inherent in the prodution of
> statistics in this political context. It has now moved beyond statistical
> issues. Can I suggest that unless anyone has any further data, it is time to
> close the discussion and that people who want to continue to discuss the
> wider politicial issues do so off list.
>
> Alison Macfralane
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [log in to unmask] [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 30 September 2011 07:44
> To: Macfarlane, Alison
> Cc: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Israel and Palestine
>
> Dear Alison,
> As you are the list owner I think you could decide to close this
> discussion. As Colin said, it started with some dodgy statistics. Pointing
> this out and discussing the difficulties of obtaining reliable statistics
> was worthwhile but now that has been done.
> best wishes
> Jane
> Mrs Jane Galbraith
>
>
>
> > There is a time and place for everything. I would just say that Sinn Fein
> > in Northern Ireland developed the idea of "the politics of the last
> > atrocity" which is ultimately sterile. In their assessment Northern
> > Ireland is a fact, Protestant Unionism is a fact, northern Nationalism
> and
> > Repudblicanism is a fact  - deal with it and move on. They have, rather
> > successfully. That is my last and only comment on this debate in this
> > forum.
> >
> > Colin
> >
> > Prof. Colin R. Talbot
> > University of Manchester,
> > Manchester Business School
> >
> > Latest book: Theories of Performance, Oxford University Press, 2010.
> >
> > Blogs: http://whitehallwatch.org <http://whitehallwatch.org/>  and
> http://publicmanagement.Wordpress.com <
> http://publicmanagement.wordpress.com/>
> > Web: www.mbs.ac.uk;
> > Phone (mobile): +44 7971 674 620
> > Skype: colinrtalbot
> > Mail: Room 1.11 MBS, Booth St West, Manchester, M15 6PB Britain
> >
> > Editor-in-Chief: International J. of Public Administration (IJPA).
> >
> > On 30 Sep 2011, at 01:12, "FELDMAN,Harry"
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >> Fair enough, Col, but clearly not everyone on the list is as well
> >> informed about the issues as you are.  I concur that the discussion has
> >> departed rather far from anything statistical, but it started out as a
> >> discussion of a table presenting stats of dubious reliability and
> >> demonstrably internal inconsistency.  I have no problem discussing out
> >> ancillary issues, however, and see no reason anyone needs to get their
> >> knickers in twist over it.  Surely, you would not advocate allowing
> >> disinformation of the kind Paul was disseminating to stand unchallenged,
> >> would you?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In solidarity,
> >>
> >> Harry Feldman
> >> Safe Work Australia
> >> Strategic Policy Branch
> >>
> >> GPO Box 641
> >> Canberra ACT 2601
> >> Location code: C220NB2
> >> Phone (02) 6240 6812
> >>
> >> <M2.jpg>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Colin Talbot [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Friday, 30 September 2011 10:06 AM
> >> To: FELDMAN,Harry
> >> Cc: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: Israel and Palestine
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Important as this issue clearly is to some, including me, I just signed
> >> up to THIS list to hear about stats issues. This is not a stats issue,
> >> except tangentially. There are numerous venues for this sort of
> >> political debate. Please go there or I for one will be leaving here, as
> >> my inbox is full enough already and I have been already fully familiar
> >> with this debate for for more than three decades. So far no one has
> >> added anything I haven't heard before.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best wishes
> >>
> >> Colin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Prof. Colin R. Talbot
> >>
> >> University of Manchester,
> >>
> >> Manchester Business School
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Latest book: Theories of Performance, Oxford University Press, 2010.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Blogs: http://whitehallwatch.org <http://whitehallwatch.org/>  and
> >> http://publicmanagement.Wordpress.com <
> http://publicmanagement.wordpress.com/>
> >>
> >> Web: www.mbs.ac.uk;
> >>
> >> Phone (mobile): +44 7971 674 620
> >>
> >> Skype: colinrtalbot
> >>
> >> Mail: Room 1.11 MBS, Booth St West, Manchester, M15 6PB Britain
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Editor-in-Chief: International J. of Public Administration (IJPA).
> >>
> >>
> >> On 30 Sep 2011, at 00:33, "FELDMAN,Harry"
> >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Paul,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> YouâEUR(tm)re not kidding about the closed minds!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Taking you at your word:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> (a)  This is a conflict between two nationalist movements.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> You can look at it that way, and it might not be technically incorrect,
> >> but it wonâEUR(tm)t shed much light on the situation of a heavily armed
> state
> >> power occupying a largely stateless indigenous group and their struggle
> >> to change that situation, one way or another.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> (b)  Britain initially promised the land of Palestine to both sides.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ItâEUR(tm)s curious that you think this is true.  If youâEUR(tm)re
> referring to
> >> such documents as the Balfour âEUR~declarationâEUR(tm), they certainly
> contain
> >> at least as much ambiguity as UNSC Resolution 242.  WhatâEUR(tm)s more
> >> interesting is that you bother to cite it as if it were relevant, even
> >> if true.  If you seriously believe that a colonial power is entitled to
> >> determine the status of those they colonise, the discussion is over
> âEUR"
> >> Israel, as the colonising power in the current situation, would then be
> >> entitled to determine what the Palestinians under their control should
> >> get, when and how.  I canâEUR(tm)t see how any radical, statistician or
> >> otherwise, could arrive at such a view.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> (c)  The United Nations granted an area to Israel which included the
> >> West Bank and Gaza.   Following war by the Arab League, the West Bank
> >> was occupied and subsequently annexed by Jordan.  Gaza was occupied by
> >> Egypt.  Israel recaptured the occupied land in 1967.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ThatâEUR(tm)s is a cute potted summary of the usual hasbara. A few
> points you
> >> might like to consider:
> >>
> >> 1.      How does the UN get to make such decisions?  If they are valid,
> >> is that the case even with a mere General Assembly resolution like 181?
> >>
> >> 2.      Nobody ever consulted the population affected about the
> >> partition plan. Some might think that would invalidate the whole
> >> process.
> >>
> >> 3.      âEUR~The UNâEUR(tm) in December 1947 did not comprise the 193
> countries
> >> we think of today.  Most of the 193 were colonies of the few countries
> >> that were members back then. The only subSaharan African country in the
> >> UN at the time was South Africa, just in the process of codifying its
> >> apartheid regime.
> >>
> >> 4.      Partition was not the only option on the table at the time, but
> >> was cynically pushed through by the chair. The reason the colonialist
> >> states were so keen on partition was doubtless its great success in
> >> India, where the blood was still flowing in the streets of Amritsar as
> >> the vote was taken.
> >>
> >> 5.      The partition granted some 55% of the territory to the Jewish
> >> state even though the Jewish population of Mandatory Palestine comprised
> >> only about a third of the total, and not much more than half of the
> >> population in the Jewish partition.  Even if the whole idea
> wasnâEUR(tm)t
> >> inherently unjust and destructive, the details of the borders were
> >> transparently unsustainable âEUR" have a look at the map âEUR"
> IâEUR(tm)m sure
> >> you can find one on JVL, or here:
> >>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine.
> >>  Note that all of the WB and Gaza were allocated to the Arab state,
> >> contrary to your assertion.
> >>
> >> 6.      Egypt and JordanâEUR(tm)s occupation of the Gaza Strip and the
> West
> >> Bank was doubtless unconscionable. Israel immediately annexed some 23%
> >> of the land allocated to the Arab state under the partition plan.
> >>
> >> 7.      How can Israel have recaptured land that was never theirs?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Resolution 242 of the UN
> >> (http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm)  requested Israel
> >> as part of a peace settlement to remove itself from occupied territories
> >> - but the resolution did not specify which land should be considered to
> >> be occupied, and it did not say, "return to the pre-1967 boundaries".
> >> The UN has never clarified its stance.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> One of the problems with âEUR~International LawâEUR(tm) is that it is
> subject
> >> to interpretation.  The hasbara approach is that in withdrawing from the
> >> Sinai, Israel completely fulfilled the obligation of âEUR~Withdrawal of
> >> Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent
> conflictâEUR(tm).
> >>  There was dispute about whether the resolution should read,
> >> âEUR~Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from the territories occupied in
> >> the recent conflictâEUR(tm).  So it would seem possible that the intent
> was
> >> indeed to allow for such a cynical reading, were it not for the
> >> unambiguous "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by
> warâEUR(tm),
> >> which many would regard as a clear expression of the UN stance.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> (d)   Palestinian refugees were ordered to leave their homes by the Arab
> >> League.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It would be hilarious, were it not so sad, to see this long since
> >> discredited myth promulgated in this day and age, especially in a
> >> radical forum.  If you have an authenticated recording of one of the
> >> fabled broadcasts and a reliable translation, you can make this claim.
> >> What intrigues me the most about the allegation is why anyone considers
> >> it relevant. The reasoning appears to be that if all or part of any
> >> population leaves its usual place of residence with the intention of
> >> returning, they relinquish any entitlement to the place.  When I leave
> >> for work in the morning, my place is fair game for any interloper who
> >> thinks they can get away with it?  Yeah, right!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> They were then held in camps and denied rights by the same members of
> >> the Arab League who had told them to leave.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The refugees were and are accommodated in camps established by UNRWA for
> >> the purpose, anticipating that Israel would abide by UNGA resolution
> >> 194.  Palestinian refugees were and are denied basic rights in Lebanon,
> >> for understandable, if specious, reasons.  But in Jordan, they enjoyed
> >> full citizenship. Make no mistake, the Arab countries have never been
> >> friends to the Palestinian refugees any more than they have to their own
> >> oppressed populations, but it was the pre-Independence Zionist militias
> >> who were alone responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in
> >> accordance with the longstanding Zionist objective to
> âEUR~transferâEUR(tm) the
> >> indigenous Palestinians as documented in Plan Dalet.  And it was and is
> >> Israel that refuses outright to permit their repatriation. Whatever the
> >> refugees have suffered at the hands of their hosts is secondary to that.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I hope that helps.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In solidarity,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Harry Feldman
> >> Safe Work Australia
> >> Strategic Policy Branch
> >>
> >> GPO Box 641
> >> Canberra ACT 2601
> >> Location code: C220NB2
> >> Phone (02) 6240 6812
> >>
> >> <M2.jpg>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: email list for Radical Statistics [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ]
> >> On Behalf Of Paul Spicker
> >> Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011 2:27 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Israel and Palestine
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> For a different view of the refugee situation, try
> >> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html .
> >> This is partisan but well sourced, and it includes recent numbers.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't think there's much point in putting the case for Israel, because
> >> minds are closed, but as a counterbalance to some of the recent
> >> postings, I'd like to invite members to consider an alternative
> >> political position to the one we've now had several versions of.  If
> >> people think any of these statements is mistaken, tell me.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> (a)  This is a conflict between two nationalist movements.
> >>
> >> (b)  Britain initially promised the land of Palestine to both sides.
> >>
> >> (c)  The United Nations granted an area to Israel which included the
> >> West Bank and Gaza.   Following war by the Arab League, the West Bank
> >> was occupied and subsequently annexed by Jordan.  Gaza was occupied by
> >> Egypt.  Israel recaptured the occupied land in 1967.   Resolution 242 of
> >> the UN (http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm)  requested
> >> Israel as part of a peace settlement to remove itself from occupied
> >> territories - but the resolution did not specify which land should be
> >> considered to be occupied, and it did not say, "return to the pre-1967
> >> boundaries".  The UN has never clarified its stance.
> >>
> >> (d)   Palestinian refugees were ordered to leave their homes by the Arab
> >> League.  They were then held in camps and denied rights by the same
> >> members of the Arab League who had told them to leave.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I conclude that this situation has been created in large part by
> >> Britain, the UN, and the Arab League.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Happy New Year.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Paul Spicker
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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