I'm one of the lucky ones here who do have access to the paper (published in the British Journal of Educational Studies 59(2), 2011). I haven't bothered reading the press release and I've only skimmed through parts of the paper itself but to give the authors their due, they do briefly allude to the limitations of their data and cite papers by Gorard (and another co-author) in which, they say, there is more detail still on the limitations of their data.
In the section of the paper that's getting everyone so hot under the collar, the data they use comes from the HESA first destination surveys (indicating what the graduates are doing 6 months after graduation) between 1994 and 2009. This data is used for a graph showing proportions of 'engineering science' (they don't define this term) graduates in employment, in further study and unemployed. The lines don't move around much.
They also present a table giving a more detailed breakdown of the destinations of engineering graduates from the figures for 2003 and 2009. They don't explain the categories they use here - 'Employment directly related to degree subject', which has 6 subcategories; 'Employment indirectly related to degree subject', which has 8 subcats; 'Non graduate employment', which has 9 subcates; and 'Other', which has no subcats. Some subcategory names strike me as rather odd. There are, e.g., 'Design associate professionals', 'Media associate professionals', 'Public service other associate profs'. What are 'associate professionals? Have they simply used HESA categories? And if so, how do HESA categorize?
As Sarah suggests, there's a fair bit more to the paper than the line that underpins the Guardian story - relating to participation in STEM subjects at school.
Chris
________________________________________
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Blackford, Sarah [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 09 September 2011 11:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Too many scientists?
Dear all,
May I issue a very big health warning with regard to this report which was presented at the British Education Research Association conference where it was shown that not many science graduates go on to do science jobs.
With my professional careers adviser hat on (I have been working in HE in this capacity for over 15 years now), believe me that every careers adviser in the land would tell you to take these figures with a very large pinch of salt. The key factor to take into account that is that the HESA figures are fundamentally flawed as they only show what graduates are doing 6 months after finishing their course. Careers advisory services have to survey up to 80% of their university graduates and so are bound to find that around 30% of them have gone back to their vacation/temp jobs while they look for a ‘proper job’ and others are unemployed (planning ahead and students are generally speaking an oxymoron). In fact the 2010 figures (taken from the publication which was probably from where the report was derived (What do Graduates do?) http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=what+do+graduates+do+2010&pbx=1&oq=what+do+graduates+do&aq=2&aqi=g5&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=1069l3272l0l6327l20l13l0l3l3l0l403l2844l2-3.5.1l9l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=16d1f7e3b8c6a539&biw=853&bih=455
show that over 50% go into ‘graduate jobs’ with different proportions of these going into scientific/technical jobs (13% - Biology; 17% Chemistry and 19% Physics). Large proportions (30 – 40 %) also go on to do higher degrees (master’s and PhDs so this also skews the figures hugely compared to arts and humanities).
There are probably different reasons why they don’t get into a scientific/technical job immediately after graduation – there are no graduate training schemes; the employers generally don’t visit campuses, many of the jobs are in SMEs which are hard to find. In addition to this, the sandwich placements and other work experience previously offered by companies to students are now few and far between which means that the students don’t have the practical skills required by employers. On top of this some universities only give undergraduates offer library projects to their final year students (which I think is unforgiveable) and so these students have nothing to put on their CVs to show where they have put their theory into practice. Organisations such as learned societies and funding bodies are trying to redress this situation by offering placements and studentships for undergraduates – see http://www.bioscience.heacademy.ac.uk/ftp/events/dlforum07/studentships.pdf
So, although this report is true in its factual content, and is also based on official figures used to rate universities against each other, I believe the data have been mis- or over-interpreted (although I admit to not having read the report and only the press release). The results should be taken in the context I have set out here and, of course, the press have picked up the scent of a great story and published it in the Guardian as a shock-horror scenario to make science look even more unappealing to our young people and their parents who are choosing subjects on the basis of whether they will get a job at the end of their degree course. I’m sure AGCAS (the Association of higher education careers advisers) has picked this up (I’ll flag it to them just in case) and will try to publish a response of some kind.
Sarah Blackford
Sarah Blackford
Head of Education & Public Affairs
Society for Experimental Biology
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kenward
Sent: 09 September 2011 10:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Too many scientists?
I have seen that ARM stuff too.
Some of their complaint is not about technical knowledge but about the skills you need to work with other people and to talk to customers. A genius with “attitude problems” can be unemployable, which may explain why they are so common in universities.
ARM and other businesses in the Cambridge area have come together to try to do something about this.
MK
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sallie Robins
Sent: 2011-September-08 19:33
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Too many scientists?
The press release actually tells you nothing about why these graduates weren't in fields related to their degrees, or how they classified this. May have been nothing to do with the jobs not being there. STEM qualifications give you skills for all sorts of careers and plenty realise after studying a subject they aren't cut out to work in the field directly. Having read around this issue I thought the skills gap and unfilled jobs were more related to increasing specialisation. Certainly a recent interview with ARM revealed they usually reckon on 1 in 100 applicants having the specific skills they require. So jobs remain unfilled.
From Sallie Robins' Dell Streak 07733330344s
On 8 Sep 2011 17:32, "Andrew Russell" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> Well, what are the equivalent figures for accountancy or media studies? The stat for physics means nothing without that info and I didn't see it on the press release.
>
> ________________________________________
> From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Francis Sedgemore [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> Sent: 08 September 2011 17:17
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: [PSCI-COM] Too many scientists?
>
> The implication of a report presented today at the London conference of the British Educational Research Association is that school leavers could further their career prospects by opting for accountancy, media studies or the like, when choosing a university course. They should think long and hard before entering physics or engineering on their UCAS forms, for if they do, there is a nearly one in four chance that they will end up working in non-graduate jobs or unskilled work after returning the hired graduation gown and cap to the costumier.
>
> http://www.bera.ac.uk/files/2011/09/science1.pdf
>
> How on Earth are we supposed to spin this *for* science?
>
> Francis
>
> --
> Dr Francis Sedgemore
> journalist and science writer
> www.sedgemore.com<http://www.sedgemore.com><http://www.sedgemore.com>
>
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