JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for GEO-TECTONICS Archives


GEO-TECTONICS Archives

GEO-TECTONICS Archives


GEO-TECTONICS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

GEO-TECTONICS Home

GEO-TECTONICS Home

GEO-TECTONICS  August 2011

GEO-TECTONICS August 2011

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: BSc to PhD?

From:

Andrew Curtis <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Tectonics & structural geology discussion list <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 8 Aug 2011 12:19:50 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (254 lines)

Just a note of caution: I agree with much of the discussion so far, but 
some appears to categorise students into 'suitable' different career 
paths based on the country and system in which they did their Ph. D. 
This seems to me to be a generalisation too far.

First, we could compare like with like in terms of age: a student who 
has just completed a Ph. D. in the US will tend to be a year or two 
(often more) older than one who has just completed a Ph. D. in the UK. A 
UK-PhD students of the same age as just-graduated US-PhD students would 
generally therefore have had a couple of extra years experience post-PhD 
to widen their education and knowledge. That might have been as a 
postdoc, but if that experience has been in industrial/governmental 
research then they may even have a broader background than the 
just-graduated US students who's training to that point might only have 
been within universities. Hence, either system could produce equally 
good academic, industrial or governmental employees or researchers.

Also note that much of the UK-PhD system has changed to a 3.5 or 4 year 
PhD system, including elements of taught training.

Finally, in my experience, I simply haven't noticed that academic 
postdocs that we have had who came from the US-PhD system were any 
better or worse at academic research than those from the UK-PhD system. 
There doesn't seem to be a consistent pattern at all.

So, I don't agree with:

"The shorter time to [UK]PhD is probably appropriate for those PhD grads 
that go on to industry, consulting or government jobs."

We should be careful not to over-generalise. There are potentially many 
PhD students on this list who might feel that their future career paths 
are being categorised unfairly!

Best wishes,
Andrew.


Brandon, Mark wrote:
> Interesting discussion. Let me take up the "further training" issue that Jo=
> hn mentions below.
> 
> In the US system, there has been a decreasing emphasis to get an MSc before=
>  a PhD. At Yale, we only have a PhD program, and about 90% of our incoming =
> students have not done a masters. The trend is to decrease the amount of ti=
> me to a PhD from about 7 years for both a MS and PhD when I was a student b=
> ack around 1980, to about 5 years for a PhD alone. I prefer this approach t=
> o the UK approach, where students are expected to get a PhD in 3 years. The=
>  reason is that the US approach provides the time needed for a student to d=
> evelop his or her own research project. My sense is that students in the UK=
>  and in Europe are more commonly assigned a project that has already been d=
> efined. That allows them to finish in a shorter time, but does not allow pr=
> actice doing independent research.
> 
> The other change is the increasing number of PhD students that go on for po=
> st docs. About 1/3 of our PhD grads go on to get academic positions. Many o=
> f those get post-docs, which provides an important opportunity to develop f=
> urther independence and experience. The shorter time to PhD is probably app=
> ropriate for those PhD grads that go on to industry, consulting or governme=
> nt jobs. The post-doc opportunity provides a more efficient way to provide =
> academic based experience for those who need it.
> Best,
> Mark
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Mark Brandon, Professor, Dept. of Geology and Geophysics
> Yale University, P.O. Box 208109, 210 Whitney Avenue
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> From: "John F. Dewey" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Reply-To: Tectonics & structural geology discussion list <GEO-TECTONICS@JIS=
> CMAIL.AC.UK<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 16:40:04 -0400
> To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <GE=
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: BSc to PhD?
> 
> Jeff Greenberg is right that the US system produces a better-educated, more=
> -rounded person but that person needs furthe traing in their discipline bef=
> ore undertaking Ph. D lavel research.We need diversity.
> 
> John Dewey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/7/11 2:24 PM, "Jo Marion" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> With the long-term effect of the misguided abolishment of state-run grammar=
>  schools in Britain, we are in real danger of losing all meritocracy in edu=
> cation, especially with the introduction of exorbitant undergraduate tuitio=
> n fees.  The British geology degree is of a very high standard and I do bel=
> ieve students are adequately schooled for PhD research if they have innate =
> analytic ability.
> 
> An excellent way of judging if a student is suitable for research is throug=
> h the final year project - usually a mapping project for geology.  My colle=
> ge actively encouraged and supported an extended project in addition to a f=
> ull mapping project, and it placed the marking supervisor in an excellent p=
> osition to judge the student's ability and tenacity to go on to PhD researc=
> h.
> 
> Can I suggest that UK colleges encourage Geology BSc students interested in=
>  going onto PhD to undertake an extended project and that the reference sup=
> plied by the marking supervisor be the most valued.  It will show commitmen=
> t from the student and give potential PhD supervisors an important indicato=
> r of suitability.  It will also encourage poorer students to consider PhD a=
> s they will not have an extra MSc year to fund.
> 
> J. Marion
> 
> 
>> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 20:03:45 +0100
>> From: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [GEO-TECTONICS] BSc to PhD?
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>> I think that Paul Ryan and Cara Burberry have the "right answer"
>> between them. We need a mechanism (the Bologna process or something
>> like it) to allow and encourage ease of student movement across
>> Europe and the globe, recognizing that students have different years
>> of experience and expertise/training in different countries. The
>> solution is "do not force uniformity of training and degree structure
>> but recognize and allow for the differences. The funding authorities
>> must loosen up and take this into account.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> John
>>
>>> I should add that although Europe is developing tools to assist in
>>> the recognition of degrees, this does not
>>> take away the right of an individual course director to select
>>> students according to the advertised pre-requisites.
>>>
>>> In that academics are still 'free'.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Professor Paul D. Ryan
>>> EOS, NUI, Galway, Ireland
>>> tel:+353(0)91794599 mob: +353(0)872956190
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Tectonics & structural geology discussion list on behalf of
>>> Mary-Caroline Burberry
>>> Sent: Fri 8/5/2011 1:14 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: BSc to PhD?
>>>
>>> It seems to me that it's not the official "name" of the degree that
>>> is the pre-requisite for a PhD but the amount the student knows and
>>> time they have actually spent studying geology.
>>>
>>> I trained in the British system where we studied next to nothing but
>>> geology for the 3 or 4 years of the undergraduate, and am now
>>> teaching in the US system where my students have to take a large
>>> amount of general education classes and therefore spend around 40%
>>> of their time actually studying geology, over a 4-5 year average
>>> time in undergrad. After the undergrad degree, my US students have
>>> to go on to a Masters pre-PhD so that they can improve their
>>> knowledge of (often) core geology. We currently have at least one
>>> MSc student here who has never had a structural geology class. I'd
>>> be very skeptical indeed of taking on a student as a PhD student
>>> with the 50% general education credits that many of my undergrads
>>> have, even if the student in question had been in university for
>>> years.
>>>
>>> I don't know how these systems compare to the EU system, having
>>> never been a part of it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cara Burberry
>>>
>>> <http://greatamericanphotocontest.com/voter1/index5.aspx?p=3D2932213&x=
> =3D.jpg&referid=3DFB>
>>> <<http://greatamericanphotocontest.com/voter1/index5.aspx?p=3D2932213&x=
> =3D.jpg&referid=3DFB>http://www.komennebraska.org/site/TR?px=3D1196900&pg=
> =3Dpersonal&fr_id=3D1030&et=3Dz9nKoQAnMK3tVSV8SjLcaQ..&s_tafId=3D1720>
>>> Donate $13.10 FOR THE CURE!!!
>>> <<http://www.komennebraska.org/site/TR?px=3D1196900&pg=3Dpersonal&fr_id=
> =3D1030&et=3Dz9nKoQAnMK3tVSV8SjLcaQ..&s_tafId=3D1720>http://pages.teamintra=
> ining.org/ne/omaha11/cburberqb8>
>>
>> --
>> Please note that my email address has changed to:<http://pages.teamintrai=
> ning.org/ne/omaha11/cburberqb8> [log in to unmask]
>> Prof. John F. Dewey FRS, M.R.I.A., FAA, Mem. Acad. Eur., Mem.
>> US Nat. Acad. Sci., Distinguished Emeritus Professor University of
>> California, Emeritus Professor and Supernumerary Fellow, University
>> College Oxford.
>>
>> Sherwood Lodge,
>> 93 Bagley Wood Road,
>> Kennington,
>> Oxford OX1 5NA,
>> England, UK
>>
>> University College,
>> High Street,
>> Oxford OX1 4BH
>>
>> Telephone Nos:
>> 011 44 (0)1865 735525 (home Oxford)
>> 011 44 (0)1865 276792 (University College Oxford)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> 
> Please note that my email address has changed to: [log in to unmask]<mailt=
> o:[log in to unmask]>
> 
> Prof. John F. Dewey FRS, M.R.I.A., FAA, Mem. Acad. Eur., Mem.
> US Nat. Acad. Sci., Distinguished Emeritus Professor University of Californ=
> ia, Emeritus Professor and Supernumerary Fellow, University College Oxford.
> 
>  Sherwood Lodge,
>  93 Bagley Wood Road,
>  Kennington,
>  Oxford OX1 5NA,
>  England, UK
> 
>  University College,
>  High Street,
>  Oxford OX1 4BH
> 
>  Telephone Nos:
>  011 44 (0)1865 735525 (home Oxford)
>  011 44 (0)1865 276792 (University College Oxford)
> 

-- 
Prof. Andrew Curtis

Total Chair of Mathematical Geoscience
www.geos.ed.ac.uk/homes/acurtis/

Tel.: +44 786  654 6227
Fax.: +44 131  668 3184

School of GeoSciences
The University of Edinburgh
Grant Institute
West Mains Road
Edinburgh EH9 3JW
United Kingdom


The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998


WWW.JISCMAIL.AC.UK

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager