Hi Phil,

Thanks! I though the first half was a very interesting description of a 
sense of disembodiment. The comments seem to focus more on the latter 
half of her talk which puzzles me. Maybe most people aren't as 
interested in that sense of disembodiment as we are?

On her evidence, physical trauma is a major trigger to a feeling of 
disembodiment. There's a retreat from the hurt body into the relative 
safety of the illusion of a disembodied mind.

Cheers!
Adrian

On 16/08/2011 12:11 PM, Marston, Philip G. wrote:
> Hi Adrian,
>
> I'm not sure about research on how widespread such experiences are, but I was reminded of Eve Ensler's talk on TED this year http://www.ted.com/talks/eve_ensler.html - interesting in itself, but with a rich thread of comments that might be worth reading.
>
> Regards,
>
> Phil
>
>
> On 13 Aug 2011, at 17:38, Adrian Harris wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for responses to my query - much food for thought!
>
> On 11/08/2011 11:44 PM, Ben Matthews wrote:
>
>   what would you take as a prime example of a Western 'more disembodied self'? That may help determine how best to tiptoe through the minefield.
>
> I was speaking to a fellow academic at a social event some years back about my experience of Neo-Pagan ritual in nature, which was, for me, a good example of being very aware of my embodiment. He responded that he is sometimes hardly aware of his body at all. I'd be interested to hear of any research into how  widespread such experiences are. In the quote I used in my original question (copied at the bottom of page), Burkitt takes it as a given that "Westerners have begun to feel that they are living a kind of dual existence, divined between the life of the mind and that of the body" (Burkitt, 'Bodies of Thought', 1999; 45).
>
> As to whether this is part of "la condition humaine", as John and Yasuo Yuasa suggest, is up for debate. I'm inclined to think otherwise, but that's another thread. Perhaps that's a topic we might consider here?
>
> Claire wrote:
> I might be tempted to talk about it in terms of Western civilization attacking or threatening the embodiment of self creating a dis-embodiment of experience
> Joe suggests what I think is a similar approach:
>
> objectifying the notion of 'disembodiment' as an artifact of Western thought
>
> Vikki's paper uses the term disembodiment in ways that relate to both of the above. She writes of
>
> "seeing humans from the perspective of disembodiment"
>
> and says that
>
>
> "Violence ... relies upon a disembodied conception of humans
>
> We seem agree that talk of  'disembodiment' without some careful contextualization doesn't make sense. Clare again:
> My understanding is that you cannot speak of being disembodied since it is all an experience or version of embodiment
> I also see a consensus emerging that we need to talk about disembodiment as an 'as if' experience; we cannot actually be disembodied but can have an experience that in some ways feels like we are.
>
> In more general term, the neologism 'dys-embodiment' is useful as a term to describe
> embodiment within a damaged or traumatised body
> (Williams, S., (1996). The vicissitudes of embodiment across the chronic illness trajectory. Body&  Society, 2,2. pp. 23-471996). See Colleen Fisher's paper, http://www.tasa.org.au/conferences/conferencepapers07/papers/57.pdf
>
> Jenner also refers to Williams (http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/910/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf<http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/910/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf>):
>
> According to Simon J. Williams (1996:37), chronic illness is typically characterised by a trajectory that moves from an original state of embodiment “…to a subtle, complex and sophisticated oscillation between states of dys-embodiment and attempts at re-embodiment.”
> However, embodiment is a condition where
> the body is taken for granted and only “marginally present” (Williams 1996:24). Nonetheless, there is an implicit dualism
> of mind over body at work. This dualism is not obvious because for the most part, the body complies with the mind’s wishes with little or no resistance.
> (both above from Jenner: http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/910/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf).
>
> Thanks again!
> Best wishes,
> Adrian
>
> On 8/11/11 3:40 PM, "Adrian Harris"<[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>
> Hi, I'm working on a book chapter at the moment and have a question about terminology. Although 'embodiment' is an aspect of human subjectivity rather than a fact of physical reality, what does it mean to speak of being disembodied? Does it make sense to say, for example, "Western civilization creates a more disembodied self'? One can argue that we must be embodied to exist, in which case this needs to be phrased differently - something like: "[t]he experience the self has been essentially disembodied" (Burkitt, 'Bodies of Thought', 1999; 45). This does mean composing quite convoluted sentences, so I'm interested in how other people have tackled this.
>
> Phil Marston
> Learning Technology Adviser
> &  PhD Candidate
> School of Education
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