Hi Mogg

I've worked with Cornish ethnic activists since 1994 and have also
done academic work on the convergences of Right wing politics and
esoteric and Pagan cultures, including the New Right, so let me share
with you you about some of the differences that I have observed within
these contexts.  First, I would like to state that it's a really
tricky distinction since modern discourses surrounding ethnic and
cultural distinctiveness are based on ideas of essentialism and
cultural transmission (the whole blood and soil nastiness) that
anthropologists know just aren't correct.  In the case of Cornwall
(also broadly Wales and Scotland, but the cultural politics in those
places have their own contexts and complexities) awareness and
assertion of ethnically based politics have arisen within a context of
economic oppression that has, in fact, had an ethnic dimension to it.
Yes, there is an ethnic Cornish underclass, just like there is an
ethnic Welsh underclass. Activists have *had* to to leverage their
cultural distinctiveness because, frankly, within the political
discourses of the EU and the UK as they have emerged over the past 15
or so years, promoting the link between cultural distinctiveness and
economic development has been a very useful strategy.   Although
devolution polities within the UK are technically based on *civic*
notions of polity, to some degree, these efforts are legitimized with
recourse to history, culture, language and ethnicity.  Do I think this
is right or useful?  Not always, and it causes some really nasty
identity and policy issues, but we are faced with the reality that
even though the ways in which we conceive of ethnicity are seriously
flawed, ethnic discrimination still exists, and people still do want
self determination. Plaid Cymru, Meybon Kernow and SNP all generally
describe themselves as Green and Left, and Scotland in particular has
done wonders in terms of building an ethnic politics that is
wonderfully inclusive.

NOW, in the Pagan and esoteric context we have a different problem. To
seriously simplify things, the ways in which ethnicity tends to be
used here is that there is a belief that certain peoples have access
to certain transcendent "truths" which are linked to culture and land.
This sort of thinking has frequently been tied to this mystical idea
that peoples each have their own Gods and their own little bit of
land, and that to put the world right we all need to get with our own
people and on our own land with our own Gods and then there will be
some sort of universal harmony ushering in the new Golden Age. There
are of course varying degrees of this belief within different groups'
(and individuals) understanding of their relationship to any given
cultural tradition. On the more extreme end, New Right rhetoric argues
that they are against globalization and are simply extolling the
virtues of diversity and trying to preserve it, which sounds very
Lefty, but in practice it dictates ethnic separation.  At the core
this approach certainly shares a lot of the same *basic construction*
of ethnicity as that of cultural nationalism, the differences, to me,
end up being how this is expressed politically. Where this whole thing
goes wrong (in my personal view) is the notion that "the folk" have
some sort of group mind and purpose, based on "tradition" passed down
by the "ancestors."  Within New Right inspired groups, there is
generally an explicit elitist and anti democratic ethic and the group
is seen as superior to the individual, although in reading their
rhetoric their conception of rulership is not entirely clear. As I
understand it, the ideal model is one of empire which would encompass
small, independent, ethically based tribal structures based on
Dumezeil's notions of social stratification.  Perhaps some of the New
Right proponents here will delurk to clear up any misconceptions I may
have about this. It's clear to me why a bunch of Pagans who dig some
sort of imagined Neo Tribalism might think this is a cool approach,
even though I think it's really problematic.

I think that within culturally based Paganisms there are a number of
approaches to ethnicity and culture.  I would argue that they are
inherently conservative (with a small c), but that they do not have to
be exclusive in practice.  There are also a number of economic,
technological and cultural conditions why the Pagan New Right (which
has been around since 1968) is able to gain such a foothold *right
now*.  Yes, there is a lot of widespread Pagan belief about culture,
about land and the environment, anti capitalism, and, frankly
antimodernity, which makes many of the policies of the New Right
attractive to them.  I think what we need to do is to look at many of
the assumptions underlying structures Paganism and some esoteric
movements to explain why they line up as well as they do and why
Pagans at this particular juncture in history are more vulnerable to
this rapidly emerging political movement.

I could go on and on about all of this, but I'll stop there.

Amy

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM, mandrake <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On 16/08/2011 18:13, Magliocco, Sabina wrote:
>
> Sabina
>
> Tricky - is there no sort of indigenous discourse that avoids these
> pitfalls?
> I'm familiar with the argument but wonder whether there is some room for
> some sort of cultural -
> or political nationalism ? as is sometimes posed for Wales (where I
> indiginate: )
> - rather than the full blown "ethnic" nationalism of the kind so destructive
> in former Yugoslavia?
> As you know, Scottish independence is a real possibility here although so
> far that is fairly inclusive programme.
>
> In Wales you do see (very occasionally) more of the nasty ethnic stuff,
> especially in the north - with some hatred of cosmopolitan south and Cardiff
> -
> Cardiff has one of the oldest black communities in UK (think of Shirley
> Bassi) -
> but this is an issue for some ultra nationalists.
>
> This isn't "political religion" of sort we are maybe thinking about viz
> paganism - not yet.
> Wales and Scotland are of course reknowned as heartlands of the traditional
> left -
> and there has always been a tension between socialist and nationalist
> agendas.
>
> The theorist Roger Griffin seems to think no good can come of political
> religion of any kind - do you think that is true?
> Pagans do sometimes say that their religion has an implied political agenda
> - more usually allied to the green party?
>
> senebty
>
> Mogg
>
>
>
>
>
>> Arguments based on "blood and soil" and indigeneity are increasingly
>> prevalent even among Pagans who do not think of themselves as racist or
>> nationalist.  It's a disturbing trend.  Many are well-meaning people who are
>> interested in reconstructionism or in reconnecting with ancestral
>> traditions, but are unaware of the logical implications of their arguments.
>>
>> I think we need to speak out as a community against this kind of
>> discourse.  Because so much of modern Paganism is informed by academic
>> research, those of us who engage in such work could educate people about the
>> problems with these arguments -- as Mogg said, to "engage and change minds."
>>
>> Of course, die-hard racists and fascists will remain unmoved by our
>> arguments -- but these are in the minority, and always have been.
>>
>> Best,
>> Sabina
>>
>> Sabina Magliocco
>> Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> California State University - Northridge
>> [log in to unmask]
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of mandrake
>> [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:54 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Fw: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] CFP:
>> Extremism, Nationalism and Transgression
>>
>> Dear Samuel Wagar
>>
>> Political religion
>>
>> It's good to see that there are people on the list plugged into the issues
>> without overblowing it too much.
>> It is something I've raised  before and the pagan movement is aware of the
>> issues and is engaging and where necessary has excluded neo-fascists -
>> and as is said, on facebook there have been a few posts from people not
>> wanting to have NR folk amongst their friends.
>>
>> Whilst I sympathise, I do also think there are some instances where one
>> might let someone in on spec in order to engage and hopefully change minds -
>> some are beyond that but others are just confused. I've been involved with
>> a new network called "The Companions of Seth" which specifically is
>> non heirarchical,not racist, not into petty power games ..creative,
>> adventurous open minded etc
>> previous Setian groups have been v ambiguous on these issues and COS does
>> seem to include some "survivors" -
>> its tricky because previous setians have some excellent work, especially
>> liturgy - and we have mutual respect - although we Companions have a
>> different way of seeing the mythos and want to
>> move the current away fromthe  New Right to what we see as its more
>> natural home in the Liberatarian socialist domain.
>>
>> We are currently "clothing" our tradition and formulating a mission
>> statement.
>> I may be able to submit something to the proposed anthology as mentioned
>> in an earlier post by (?)
>>
>> Senebty
>>
>> Mogg Morgan
>>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  current neofascist attempts to infiltrate occult circles.
>>
>> They've always been here. At least in North America the Odinist movement
>> and Asatru is crawling with them. The first organizer of Northern Traditions
>> in N.A., Helen Christensen, is a fascist. She's now retired and living on
>> Vancouver Island, an elderly woman not active in the movement anymore. The
>> book "Gods of the Blood : the Pagan Revival and White Separatism" by Mattias
>> Gardell (Durham NC: Duke U Press,2003) is a very good history of the
>> movement. Gardell teaches at Stockholm University in Sweden.
>>
>> Did anyone else notice the similarities between Brievik's ideology and the
>> ideas of the Legion of the Archangel Michael / Iron Guard, the Roumanian
>> fascist group that Mircea Eliade was involved with in the 1930s and
>> sympathetic to throughout his life? Particularly the idea of martyrdom
>> through committing a detestable act - like Judas condemning oneself to Hell
>> for the sake of the "greater goal of liberation of Christendom"?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Sam Wagar
>>
>>
>