On 22/08/2011 10:07, Caroline Tully wrote:

Cheers Caroline

Interesting stuff there -
I'm not to sure about Seth as "symbol of improper kingship" -
wondered if that's some sort of ancient "colonial" narrative -
afterall Horus is "illegitimate", conceived, according to the myth, post 
mortem -
its funny how when we read this myth we also accept the "colonial" 
reasoning -
In the mythology Seth does question Horus's legitimacy and indeed 
fitness to rule, given his weakness?
European Kingship, often also illegitimate, has similar narratives, ie 
tracing lineage back to some supernatural parentage,
ie Jesus for french monarchy, Melusine etc.?


It's not to say the whole predynastic/preformal is 
matrilineal/matriachal there were, as you know, lots of different groups,
and therefore lots of different ways they may have organised their 
extended family/tribal groups.
It's also the case that "male strength" was only one of skills needed 
for survival - just as important in that environment would be
knowledge of the seasons, business/trade cycles etc and the annual rains 
(in the desert areas).

E J Baumgartle was Margaret Murray's successor at UCL/Petrie and
she raised these kinds of possibilities based on analysis of the archaeology
of predynastic sites

bb/senebty

Mogg Morgan






> Hi Mogg,
>
> Well, Isis is the personification of the throne (among other things) and has
> the throne sign on her head. So she is obviously in some way vital to the
> system of ['proper'] kingship - as Seth is [in one reading of his role in
> the Myth of Kingship] the symbol of 'improper' Kingship, ie/ Pharaonic rule
> was transmitted from father to son, not father to brother, ideally. I'm sure
> there are many examples of this not actually being the case in physical
> reality though, and possibly in other myths that I can't think of right now.
> And also, tell that to the Hyksos who very much identified themselves with
> Seth (but that may have been because he was identified with foreigners -
> remember Seth has Anat as a 'foreign' wife).
>
> Matrilineal is different to 'matriarchal', so I don't doubt the importance
> of queens, or let's call them 'elite females' perhaps, in the production of
> leadership, I think the Queen Mother (back to 'queens') is considered vital
> in the Pharaonic period. I don't know that much about Pre-Dynastic Egypt...
> except that there was a lot of Cow symbolism.. and Hathor is a cow, and
> Hathor was associated with the Queen in the Pharaonic period... Hat-Hor =
> "house of Horus". (and in other countries as well that had an important
> early relationship with cows - like say, Greece, Hera is 'cow-eyed'....)
>
> So, yes, I think that the 'Queen Mother' and 'Queen Wife' were important...
> but that doesn't mean that I think Pre-Dynastic Egypt was 'matriarchal' -
> but then again, really, I don't know because of lack of study on it on my
> part.
>
> ~Caroline.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of mandrake
> Sent: Monday, 22 August 2011 6:34 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Matriarchy - was "Important re-issue on
> slavic folklore"
>
> On 22/08/2011 08:10, Caroline Tully wrote:
>
> Caroline
>
> I wondered if you had any thoughts about matrilineal groups in
> predynastic Egypt -
> several eminent prehistorians of Egypt have discussed this, perhaps
> prompted by Margaret Murray's early analysis of
> the authorising role of women in Egyptian Kingship?
>
> Some of the analysis of predynastic sites such as ancient Ombos/Nubt
> (Citadel of Seth)
> raise the possibility of matrilineal organisation
> or the kind of dual rulership model you mention in brief.
> Incidentally it was this kind of hint by the early excavators that made
> me think that the Setians were much more
> laid back as a culture than you'd expect from the mythological accounts?
>
> I'm sure there are other examples of ancient matriachal/matrilineal
> groups .
> And of course in the modern world there are living examples from South
> Asia, although they seem to be quite financially depressed.
>
> Senebty
>
> Mogg
>
>