Thanks, Jon, this is very interesting.  I would agree with you that we
especially need to be careful and clinical with our use of terms like
Nazi. Fascist and Nazi are not equivalent terms, although the latter
suggests the former. There are certainly people, like Flowers, who
have expressed an interest in Nazi aesthetics, history and uses of
power, but this does not necessarily mean that he is advocating the
same direction or tactics.  I'm not saying he isn't either, but I do
believe that to make these assessments that we should try to be
precise about what we mean by these terms. And I would disagree that
De Benoist is not coming from a fascist (with a small f) perspective.
I think he is, but not a Nationalist Socialist one.

As far as Radical Traditionalism is concerned, I think this term is a
bit tricky too, and it too has some classically fascist features.
From what I have been able to discern, John Michell actually coined
the term, but it was adopted within the last decade to market Evola
inspired folkish materials such as Tyr. This may not be correct, and
if anyone else has a clearer picture of how this term has developed in
distinction to Traditionalism, I would be interested in that
information.

Regards,
Amy

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Sharp Jon Mr (LTS) <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I think this may constitute a de-lurking as a previous email put it although only having joined the board a short time ago it's more of an introduction than a peering out from the shadows :)
>
> I would not describe myself as fully aligned with the views of Alain de Benoist as he presents himself now nor would I agree with all that he produced since founding the GRECE group in the late sixties. That said, I suspect my position has at least as much in common with the New Right as it does with Left discourses around some of the key themes de Benoist explores.
>
> In that context, my own view would be that support for the New Right, as constructed within de Benoist's manifesto falls a long way short of being pro-Fascist and even further from being evidence that one is an advocate of National-Socialism. Moreover, I'm not sure (would have to dig out my copy and re-read) that Flowers' support is unequivocal. For instance, de Benoist's preference for a pseudo-imperium within which diverse local identity groups subsist would be at odds with the neo-tribal perspective taken by Flowers.
>
> I would absolutely agree with you though that the term 'fascist' has become intensely problematic, both in terms of the somewhat nebulous range of positions about which it is deployed as a descriptor and due to its dual function as a ideological label and a tool for seeking to negatively frame views other than one's own. In this respect it strikes me as very similar to the label 'Stalinist', thrown about with gay abandon by far too many who are opposed to Leftism and used to describe a plethora of political positions and actions.
>
> This may seem overly pedantic to some, but I would argue that it is quite reasonable to describe Flowers as a Radical Traditionalist, a Folkish Tribalist or a supporter of the New Right (where that is understood as a generic descriptor for a very broad movement rather than a particular strand thereof). I would still take the view that none of those associations necessarily indicate fascism or national-socialism.
>
> The reason I regard the distinction as useful is that once an idea is tagged as 'fascist' or even worse 'Nazi' it precludes it from being a valid, potentially useful or worthy notion. As a result any number of potentially interesting cultural, philosophical, ideological and (to get back on track with the JISC list title) magical perspectives may be ignored or worse.
>
> bw
> Jon Sharp
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amy Hale [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 16 August 2011 20:02
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Fw: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] CFP: Extremism, Nationalism and Transgression
>
> Jon, Flowers is very clear in his preface for an edition of Alain de
> Benoist's "Manifesto for a European Renaissance" that he is in support
> of the aims of the New Right and would like to promote them in an
> American context, although he admits it might present difficulty. He
> is also pretty clear about his views in recent interviews that he has
> given and also in the ways in which he perceives "Indo European
> Studies" and its role in cultural revitalization.
>
> Now of course, members of and proponents of the New Right do not
> generally self identify as "fascist", even though many academics,
> including myself and Roger Griffin, both believe that the legacy of
> thought and program is clear.  There is a distinction, though, between
> neo fascism, crypto fascism and what we call Historical Fascism
> (meaning Italian Fascism and Nazism during the interwar and WW2
> period).  You are right that the terminology is tricky.
>
> Best,
> Amy
>
> Amy Hale
> Department of Humanities
> St. Petersburg College
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Sharp Jon Mr (LTS)
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 'I think you're being too kind - with Stephen Flowers and Michael Aquino in
>> leadership positions, the Setian movement sure had at least a passing link
>> to the Nazis (old school NSDAP types).'
>>
>> I think there is a danger of reaching a little too quickly for the fascist/
>> national-socialist tag at times. There is plenty of material around (mainly
>> online) that suggessts a fascist/ national-socialist angle to the views
>> of  Stephen Flowers/ Edred Thorsson. However, I haven't read anything by
>> Flowers/ Thorsson himself that suggests such a label would be deserved.
>>
>> bw
>> Jon Sharp
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Samuel Wagar
>> [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: 16 August 2011 16:50
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Fw: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] CFP:
>> Extremism, Nationalism and Transgression
>>
>>> Political religion
>>
>>> It's good to see that there are people on the list plugged into the issues
>>> without overblowing it too much.
>>
>> Most of our local Northern Mysteries folk are more conservative than I am,
>> some tend toward the folkish end a bit much for me, but generally they try
>> to keep the fascists out of their organizations. There's only one or two
>> racist Asatruar I know, and they aren't political fascists.
>>
>>
>>> "The Companions of Seth"  ....
>>> previous Setian groups have been v ambiguous on these issues
>>
>> I think you're being too kind - with Stephen Flowers and Michael Aquino in
>> leadership positions, the Setian movement sure had at least a passing link
>> to the Nazis (old school NSDAP types). My friend ByThor in Alberta is also
>> libertarian left and his OTO group some years ago had some interest in the
>> German occultist currents that fed into NSDAP (as well as other things), so
>> it's not completely contaminated.
>>
>> The anthology might be interesting. Certainly worthwhile.
>>
>> Blessed Be, 93,
>>
>> Sam