Dear Ken and Filippo
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and provide such rich discussion.
I think some of these issues are sufficiently explored by externalist
theories of philosophy of mind, including the embodiement (that does not
mean I agree, we are only discussing it in this context, assuming that the
theory is valid).
Some theories suggests that somehow, some "competence" of human beings is
directly connected to their bodies. Bodies more "complex" suggests more
"competence". This can be tracked in the past through theories about
perception, affordances (J. Gibson - The ecological approach to visual
perception, etc.) and our relationship with the outside world and other
theories (varela, etc).
Returning to the machines, I think it is not difficult to program a machine
to learn from the experience. A chess-playing computer can easily be
programmed to incorporate new moves from the observation of your opponent. The
problem is that learning is a floating concept and in this case reduces
learning the simple manipulation of symbols. Manipulate symbols do not mean
to think. In addition there are complex questions that involve our existence
(the self, emotion, desires, imagination, free will, etc.) that are directly
related to our creative ability, decision-making, etc.
Design involves dealing with dilemmas, choices, anticipating events,
etc. Anticipate
events involves collecting data especially in the past to infer about the
future (mental models). Some research also suggests that emotion is an
important component of decision making as well (I'm not talking about dogs
and octopus here, but still about machines).
Philip Johnson-Laird and Ruth MJ Byrne developed a theory of mental models
Which makes the assumption that reasoning depends, not on logical form, but
on mental models (Johnson-Laird and Byrne, 1991).
Cheers...
Marcio Rocha
On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Filippo A. Salustri
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Sorry Ken, I guess I wasn't sufficiently clear.
> I meant to say that octopi & dogs have precursor abilities (planning,
> problem solving, etc) to designing. Octopi are quite ancient; this
> suggests that some of those precursor abilities have been built-in for
> a *very* long time.
> I can accept that perhaps the difference between them and us is more
> one of quantity than quality, but if it's a matter of quantity, it is
> a vast one.
> I'm a "dog person" too, and I've often been amazed at the behaviours
> of our dogs, but I've never recognized in them the kind of reflection
> that I recognize every day in people. Nor am I aware of any research
> that suggests *any* animal has the reflective abilities of humans to
> the degree we exhibit it.
>
> Cheers.
> Fil
>
> On 19 June 2011 18:34, Ken Friedman <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > Dear Fil,
> >
> > Don't know any octopi, but I'll accept the fact that dogs don't think
> > or reflect as we do. They're dogs, and a natural consequence of this
> > is that they have different bodies, different mental states, and
> > different hermeneutical horizons. They certainly don't read Simon.
> >
> > While I agree that dogs cannot therefore reflect as they do, I would
> > not go so far as to say they don't reflect. I don't claim that they do,
> > either. As a result, I wouldn't be prepared to say that they design
> > in Simon's sense, and I would not claim that dogs are reflective
> > practitioners.
> >
> > Like most designers -- and engineers -- dogs do like to get paid,
> > and clever dogs often figure out how.
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > Filippo A. Salustri wrote:
> >
> > --snip--
> >
> > I think being able to design (at least in Simon's sense) is something
> > we evolved to do. There's examples of octopi opening jars and
> > uncorking bottles to get at food.
> >
> > --snip--
> >
> > ... (planning, problem solving, etc).
> >
> > I think the feature that most distinguishes humans is that we *know*
> > we're designing. I don't think animals like octopi & dogs reflect as
> > we do.
> >
> > --snip--
> >
>
>
>
> --
> \V/_
> Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng.
> Mechanical and Industrial Engineering
> Ryerson University
> 350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON
> M5B 2K3, Canada
> Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749
> Fax: 416/979-5265
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/
>
--
Marcio Rocha
Transtechnology Research
University of Plymouth, UK
http://trans-techresearch.net/researchers/marcio-rocha
+0 7553 614185
Federal University of Brazil
Visual Arts Faculty
Graphic design Department
www.fav.ufg.br
www.ufg.br
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