medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]>
> Well, Christopher, tricky or not, modern restorers can move mosaics around
quite effectively.
yes, presumably using (more or less) the technique outlined by Brother Briggs
earlier.
the capabilities of "modern restorers" is not the issue.
the issue is the capabilities of 12th c. actors.
>Whether that might have been practicable in the 12th century is another
matter.
mmmm... perhaps that's (more or less) what i meant when i axed, "was the
actual *mosaic* itself 'transferred' in the 12th c.?"
>I really don't know what the situation might have been, but I tend to suspect
that Schiller was referring to the iconography rather than the actual
tesserae.
which has nothing whatsoever to do with the question i posed --iconographic
"transference" is a Piece of Cake, whether in the same medium or across
multiple media.
to "transfer" an actual, physical object made up of thousands of tiny pieces,
each of which must be replaced precisely in its proper place --that's more of
a Mud Pie.
at least, if you want to dine on it with your eyes later.
were the Medievals capable of such metaphor mixing?
i suspect that the problem here is with the translation of whatever was
written in German into "the mosaic was transferred" --which, in English,
certainly means something like "physically moved." *not* "copied."
>The only 'pre-modern' mosaics I know of that were moved about were miniature
mosaic icons,
somehow, i don't think that that is *quite* the same thing...
>but I would not rule out the moving of large-scale mosaics,
well, until i come across a *spec* of evidence that might suggest that a
large-scale mosaic was "transferred" (in the English sense of the word) in the
early 12th c., i believe that i would, de facto, rule such an outlandish idea
"out."
>most probably for symbolic
"symbolic"?
what on earth do you mean?
>reasons -- sort of like "belles verrieres" in stained glass.
again, off-topic.
i have no doubt that the 12th c. guys would have loved to "transfer" the
venerable mosaic to new quarters.
the issue is not one of Desire, but of Capability.
> Come to think of it, parts of the apse mosaic of St Peter's Basilica (Old St
Peters) were saved when it was demolished in the 16th century.
that's interesting, and quite a bit Closer to the Mark.
let me be sure i understand: parts of the (4th c.?) mosaic were *physically
transferred* (to where?) in the 16th c.?
just to clarify, if such was the case, the reason for the "salvation" was not
"symbolism," but rather "Veneration."
turns out that i have ready access to both the English and (original) German
eds. of Schiller, so i can check what German word is translated as
"transferred."
back ina bit.
c
> On 20/04/2011 1:10 PM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > From: Revd Gordon Plumb<[log in to unmask]>
> >
> >> Gertrud Schiller, Iconography of Christian Art p.100 has the following
> > footnote:
> >
> >> The original apse mosaic dating from the end of the 4th century in S.
Clemente in Rome was transferred from the lower to the upper church in 1126-8
and was much restored and altered in the process.
> > Jim, is this true (not that i don't believe you, Gordon, but i don't know
Schiller at all) --was the actual *mosaic* itself "transferred" in the 12th
c.?
> > if so, do you know of any other [pre-modren] examples of a *mosaic* being
> > moved from one place to another??
> >
> > a quite tricky thing to do, i should think.
> >
> > c
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