Excellent question Noah

i've changed the thread title as it will become a broader debate than just 
BOTL i hope

I spent a lot of my thesis in a complex unpicking of broader consensus (by 
which i meant christian) morality and trying to relate that to magick (still 
not sure if that part worked)

there is also the reflexivity issue of studying something which you also 
practice, as in the 'of course they'll defend it, they are insiders'- kind 
of remark from some audiences

having liuttle to do with the media is one strategy, or having something to 
do with members of the media you trust might be more constructive - 
'occulture' seems to be gradually gaining ground so far as balanced 
reporting goes in some areas of the press and tv (Harry Potter might even be 
partly responsble...) which is perhaps why this Welsh case is making a few 
antennae twitch as it could be yet anothe rrepeat of the lazy cut and paste 
journalism we've seen so often with Crowleyan issues in particualr and bad 
pagan press in general

There was also the death of a pagan in Cornwall a few years back who 
drowned, butr his body was washed up weeks later with what were considered 
to be "ritual injuries" and a big hooha ensued. H'ed been bashed around in 
the sea for weeks, and yet nobody seemed to want to be parsimonious about 
where the likely injuries came from (impacts with rocks and piers). The case 
turned out to be centered around a rather mundane love triangle and some 
dodgy insurance claims and as i recall fizzled out, but for weeks the papers 
were all "black magic murder" this and "killed by witchcraft" that.

Crowley was a publicity hound in the 1920s etc because he knew how to play 
the media as it was then, i suspect he'd not be so overt if he were alive 
today, with the internet and 24 hour rolling news coverage today, as every 
last cough and fart of a celeb or infamous person seems to be on google if 
you look hard enough

Cesnur conferences have a rolling theme of cults and NRMs, and where the 
dividing lines might be, plus a lot of stuff about relative moralties, there 
might be some clues in the various conference papers they have on their site 
http://www.cesnur.org/

but for sure, a tricky balancing act and a very thought-provoking question

Dave E

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Noah Gardiner" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Book of the Law in News 4 wrong reason


> I've been watching this discussion with great interest, as it first seemed 
> that many on this list were primarily  concerned with 'bad publicity' 
> regarding Liber AL that might arise from this incident. I found that 
> reaction somewhat odd, given that Crowley never seemed too concerned with 
> making peace with the dominant public morality, to put it lightly. I'm 
> guess I'm curious as to what extent academics and other writers on 
> occultism, NRM etc. feel the need to act as defenders of the 'normalcy' or 
> 'good morality' of the people involved in these movements, and to go about 
> distinguishing the 'real' practitioners from the 'nutters'.
>
> This strikes close to home for me as I work and teach in Islamic studies, 
> where we're often accused of being apologists for Islam at points where it 
> comes into conflict with Western liberalism, or in debates surrounding the 
> presence of some kind of intrinsic relationship between Islam and 
> terrorism. From my own point of view, such accusations typically  come 
> from people who either have little in-depth knowledge of the subject 
> and/or are pushing other political agendas that rely on fear of Muslims, 
> but there certainly are people in my field who prefer to entirely gloss 
> over these issues ( I certainly don't claim to be perfect in regard to any 
> of this).
>
> So my question is, how do academics and writers on occultism etc. balance 
> defending their subjects from outright slander and tabloid sensationalism 
> while still accounting for beliefs and practices that may run drastically 
> counter to prevailing norms?
>
> - Noah
>
> On 2/6/2011 5:56 AM, Caroline Tully wrote:
>> Hi Mogg,
>>
>>>> The core issue for me is the criminality&  child abuse,<<
>> Dare I call it "sex with those of an inappropriate age"? as they weren't
>> exactly children were they? Weren't they 15 and 16? I always think of 
>> people
>> 12 and under as "children" - however that doesn't mean that legal terms 
>> will
>> agree with me (in Australia you're a "youth" until 25, but the word 
>> "youth"
>> seems much younger than that).
>>
>> I have just noticed that over the years some occultists have gotten in 
>> awful
>> trouble and been called "child molesters" for having sex with what are
>> essentially teenagers. Yes, some teenagers are more mature than others. 
>> I'd
>> imagine that I'd have found it very weird to have had sex with someone 
>> who
>> was even over 20 when I was a teenager, but some don't.
>>
>> Yes, it does seem manipulative for a much older person to have sex with a
>> teenager - some/manytimes. I've already been lectured on another list in
>> regards to Gavin and Yvonne Frost and the "let adult members of the coven
>> break the virgins in" philosophy. Someone on another list, in regards to 
>> the
>> Frosts, told me that in the 60s it was considered ideal for "older wiser"
>> adults to give virgins their first taste of sex.
>>
>> So... all I'm saying is that it might be a bit more complicated in 
>> regards
>> to the teenagers in this case, but then again it might not.
>>
>> ~Caroline.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of mandrake
>> Sent: Sunday, 6 February 2011 9:42 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Book of the Law in News 4 wrong 
>> reason
>>
>> Caroline
>>
>> The core issue for me is the criminality&  child abuse,
>> the other contextual stuff we maybe all tend to think of as less 
>> important,
>> perhaps underestimating the role external things play in influencing
>> behaviour?
>>
>> There may well be some quite antisocial beliefs in Liber Al, Liber Oz
>> and other Thelemic writing -
>> I suspect most religious/inspired  texts have them - so for example the
>> Bhagavad Gita appears to advocate
>> total war but it was the non violent Gandhi's favourite text.
>> Difference is that Bhagavad Gita is sanctified by time -
>> so the glosses and interpretations now are as well known as the literal
>> text.
>> Even so the moral messages of Liber Al ought to make sense to modern
>> society -
>> and maybe they don't.  If anything Thelemites often talk of being 
>> amoral -
>> or of the triumph of the will?
>> We are maybe stuck with a scripture that just isn't subtle enough for
>> the modern world?
>>
>> "Love and do what you will"
>>
>> Mogg Morgan
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/02/2011 22:42, Caroline Tully wrote:
>>> Although it could all be true(ish). It's not the first time nutters have
>>> gone even nuttier with the help of a religious text.
>>>
>>> And that brings up the question, to me anyway: How do we interpret The
>> Book
>>> of the Law? It's tricksy and poetic, people think they know what it 
>>> means,
>>> but do they? Does it mean anything at all?
>>>
>>> ~Caroline.
>>>