JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for DATA-PROTECTION Archives


DATA-PROTECTION Archives

DATA-PROTECTION Archives


data-protection@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

DATA-PROTECTION Home

DATA-PROTECTION Home

DATA-PROTECTION  January 2011

DATA-PROTECTION January 2011

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Passwords question

From:

Andrew Cormack <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Andrew Cormack <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 7 Jan 2011 11:52:04 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)

Ian

I think we're in pretty close agreement :)



> -----Original Message-----

> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues

> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Welton

> Sent: 07 January 2011 11:35

> To: [log in to unmask]

> Subject: Re: Passwords question

> 

> On 07 January 2011 at 07:21 Andrew Cormack said:

> 

> > I can reassure you

> there are at least two of us ;)

> 

> There will undoubtedly be more, which

> created the puzzlement.

> 

> > If you're talking about businesses

> encrypting the master copy of their data...

> 

> It seems we are confusing

> encryption with password management and access control.  I am speaking

> mainly of the later irrespective of encryption use, but used the former

> for examples. I see the deletion of data no longer required is nothing

> more than good data management practice. Having secondary access to the

> passwords on the other hand raises the issues you outline in your next

> paragraph

> 

> > I very much agree that all of those...  If someone else

> has stored material on my system that is likely to come to the

> attention of a RIPA Part III request then I'd rather not be able to

> decrypt it, thanks!

> 

> My experience has shown that many system

> administrators only adopt that stance in that type of personally

> threatening circumstance. The nature of the role otherwise frequently

> indicates access is gained/granted and occasionally misused.



It shouldn't be. My views on how sysadmin powers ought to be used are on the web, and endorsed by UCISA, the representative body for university and college IT directors. See http://www.ja.net/development/legal-and-regulatory/regulated-activities/charter-for-system-administrators.html. A number of universities now have something based on that in their employment contracts for that type of post, and I understand the document has also been promoted within SOCITM.



> > I agree

> the scenario is a good one for thinking about the balance of security

> threats...

> 

> I myself was thinking of the many privacy issues which are

> clearly illustrated by the case including the values and perceptions

> which resulted in the manipulation of the media, (the original press

> release.)  Our own different perspectives presented during this

> discussion illustrate some of the richness of the content.

> 

> I disagree

> that they all come down to the issue of key management.  A complex set

> of issues prior to and separate from that have created this situation

> and associated continuing developments surrounding the wider areas of

> accountability/responsibility and proof/prove. Unfortunately this is

> something which in my opinion the legal system currently finds itself

> bound to continue progressing and that is of interest to me in some

> social contexts of my privacy research, hence this email thread which

> from some perspectives has been answered more by silence than

> contributions.



Sorry, my fault for phrasing my point badly. What I meant to say was that I think the great majority of these issues are non-technical.



And I very much agree that the legal system sometimes struggles to cope. Hardly surprising as I, despite past jobs as both sysadmin and head of a security team, often have to think carefully what can be inferred from given evidence, and what can't! (Incidentally all the specific issues around RIPA Part III were rehearsed exhaustively both when the Act was passed and when that part was enabled, so it wasn't for lack of trying that the law didn't end up better than it is). Good to hear that there are people trying to help make things better.



Cheers

Andrew



> 

> Ian W

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: This list is

> for those interested in Data Protection issues [mailto:data-

> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Andrew Cormack

> Sent: 07 January

> 2011 07:21

> To: [log in to unmask]

> Subject: Re: [data-

> protection] Passwords question

> 

> 

> 

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From:

> This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues

> > [mailto:

> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Welton

> > Sent: 06

> January 2011 12:21

> > To: [log in to unmask]

> > Subject: Re:

> Passwords question

> >

> > Yes RIPA does. The discussions on the legal

> blogs focused on the

> > viability of presenting any 'forgotten'

> defence. (Notwithstanding

> > medical evidence of a memory disorder).

> Those discussions questioned

> > any ability to be able to maintain an

> effective 'sorry I have

> > forgotten' defence. They should be available

> via a search using

> > factors contained in the link provided. (Having

> been focusing on

> > financial and academic worlds over the last year I

> did not myself save

> > all the

> > links.)

> >

> > One has to accept the

> juries findings could probably be based upon

> > softer information

> available within the courtroom. One of the odd

> > things is that I

> myself deliberately do put in a password intending

> > not to remember

> it when occasionally finally closing electronic

> > accounts down, and I

> also forgot some passwords when first obtaining

> > and learning how to

> use PGP and utilising long passwords. (I found

> > memory management

> differs between long and short passwords) So it is

> > difficult to

> believe I am the only person who follows such a practice

> > or has

> experienced that type of forgetfulness.

> 

> I can reassure you there are

> at least two of us ;)

> 

> > Any other responses from the

> > list will be

> interesting as the questions remain valid.

> 

> If you're talking about

> businesses encrypting the master copy of their data and relying on a

> single person remembering the key then I'd have thought that business

> continuity was a bigger risk than a RIPA Part III challenge. But the

> right solutions to that include enterprise encryption systems that do

> key management properly, providing multiple routes to decrypt the data,

> for example by a two (or more) key emergency recovery process. If the

> concern is staff using their own encryption tools on their own data

> then I'd suggest either a policy that prohibits that, or else mandates

> regular checks that they can decrypt it and, if not, immediate deletion

> of the files (which are scrap anyway, since the person can no longer

> decrypt them).

> 

> > I do find it

> > interesting that nobody has yet raised

> the issue of access to a

> > persons passwords not being acceptable

> because of the levels of access

> > that provides, or that other access

> mechanisms are generally

> > available. (To enable legal procedures only

> requires read access.) All

> > of which leaves open the interpretation

> that passwords, whilst being a

> > part of security, are being perceived

> as more of an accountability

> > mechanism than a security one. (I am

> deliberately disregarding

> > situations where they may be widely shared

> anyway.)

> 

> I very much agree that all of those (including

> accountability) are problems with shared *login* passwords (though a

> pragmatic approach will quickly spot that those with access to the

> backup copy of the passwords may be sysadmins who can easily break into

> users' accounts anyway). But for *encryption* passwords there is also

> the problem, if they are shared, that the unfortunate person who might

> be able to access to the backup copy can easily be accused of having

> *created* the encrypted file. If someone else has stored material on my

> system that is likely to come to the attention of a RIPA Part III

> request then I'd rather not be able to decrypt it, thanks!

> 

> > For info,

> if it is useful to

> > anybody, this case does provide a particularly

> good case study

> > illustrating many different facets of the privacy

> paradigm.

> 

> I agree the scenario is a good one for thinking about the

> balance of security threats (I use it in my own courses!), though there

> are sufficient peculiarities around the specific case that I'm not sure

> I'd cite it directly. But questions of whether it is better to have

> material destroyed than divulged (which is the assessment that should

> lead to a decision to encrypt) and how to manage access thereafter, are

> well worth exploring, and a lot more complex than the simple slogan of

> "use encryption" might lead you to believe. They almost always come

> down to key management, which is a human/policy issue, rather than a

> technological one, though technology can help.

> 

> Cheers

> Andrew

> 

> > Ian W

> 

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Andrew

> Cormack [mailto:Andrew.

> > [log in to unmask]]

> > Sent: 05 January 2011 17:43

> 

> > To: Ian Welton; data-

> > [log in to unmask]

> > Subject: RE:

> Passwords question

> >

> >

> > Ian

> > RIPA

> > part III definitely allows

> forgetfulness as a defence (s53(3)).

> > However the blog suggests that

> the question in this case was actually

> > whether it was plausible that

> someone would use such an unmemorable

> > password (40-50 *random*

> characters, the blog suggests) and not write

> > it down. The jury

> appear to have concluded that it wasn’t plausible,

> > therefore there

> must be a written copy somewhere that the defendant

> > was refusing to

> disclose. So the defendant failed to "adduce

> > sufficient evidence to

> raise an issue" of whether he was still in

> > possession of the

> (written) password.

> >

> > There are ways of generating memorable

> passwords of that length that

> > don't need to be written down (the

> passphrase for my digital signature

> > is of that order), but using a

> random number generator doesn't seem to

> > be one of them.

> >

> > Andrew

> 

> >

> > --

> > Andrew Cormack,

> > Chief Regulatory Adviser, JANET(UK)

> > Lumen

> House, Library Avenue,

> > Harwell, Didcot. OX11 0SG UK

> > Phone: +44 (0)

> 1235 822302

> > Blog: http://webmedia.company.ja.net/edlabblogs/regulatory->

> developments/

> >

> > JANET, the UK's education and research network

> >

> >

> JANET(UK) is a

> > trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited

> by guarantee

> > which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and

> whose Registered

> > Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell

> Science and

> > Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG

> >

> >

> >

> > -----Original

> > Message-----

> > > From: This list is for those

> interested in Data

> > Protection issues

> > > [mailto:data-

> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf

> > Of Ian Welton

> > > Sent: 05

> January 2011 17:11

> > > To: data-

> > [log in to unmask]

> > >

> Subject: Re: Passwords question

> > >

> > > The

> > issue started as a

> discussion over ethical reporting and the

> > > ethics

> > of

> organisational press releases, so most of the

> > >

> >

> coverage/discussions pertained to those areas, with legal blogs also

> >

> >

> > debating if forgetfulness could be an acceptable defence.

> > >

> > >

> It was

> > conjectured that

> > > some of the issue for the courts was the

> strength of

> > encryption.

> > >

> > > A

> > > reasonably full media write up

> was:-

> > > http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2010/10/police-

> drage-

> > > password-sex

> > >

> > > A Happy New Year to all.

> > >

> > > Ian W

> 

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>      All archives of messages are stored permanently and are

>       available to the world wide web community at large at

>       http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html

>      If you wish to leave this list please send the command

>        leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]

> All user commands can be found at

> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm

>  Any queries about sending or receiving messages please send to the

> list owner

>               [log in to unmask]

>   Full help Desk - please email [log in to unmask] describing your

> needs

>         To receive these emails in HTML format send the command:

>          SET data-protection HTML to [log in to unmask]

>    (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)

>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     All archives of messages are stored permanently and are

      available to the world wide web community at large at

      http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html

     If you wish to leave this list please send the command

       leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]

All user commands can be found at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm

 Any queries about sending or receiving messages please send to the list owner

              [log in to unmask]

  Full help Desk - please email [log in to unmask] describing your needs

        To receive these emails in HTML format send the command:

         SET data-protection HTML to [log in to unmask]

   (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^





Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000
1999
1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager