JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for CCP4BB Archives


CCP4BB Archives

CCP4BB Archives


CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

CCP4BB Home

CCP4BB Home

CCP4BB  December 2010

CCP4BB December 2010

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Fwd: [ccp4bb] Wyckoff positions and protein atoms

From:

Ian Tickle <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Ian Tickle <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 16 Dec 2010 12:30:48 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (67 lines)

> You still have an arbitrary threshold: at high resolution you see two disordered atoms off-axis and at low resolution you see one ordered atom on-axis. However, somewhere in between you or the program has to decide whether you still see two atoms or if the data (resolution) does not warrant such a statement and you switch to the one-atom model.

Switching between interpretations happens all the time as higher
resolution data is obtained!  Let's say at low resolution you see
density apparently for one copy of a side-chain (i.e. the density is
not of sufficient resolution to warrant interpreting it as disordered
two half side-chains) and you fit that.  To keep it simple I'm
assuming it's on a general, not a special position.  Then you collect
high-resolution data and now you see that the same side-chain is
disordered.  Rephrasing your statement: "somewhere in between you or
the program has to decide whether you still see one (ordered, with
occupancy=1) side-chain or if the data (resolution) warrants such a
statement and you switch to the two side-chain (disordered, now with
sum occupancy=1) model".

> As George Sheldrick confirmed, there is a discontinuous transition between the two, which does not correspond to the physical reality. There is no "quantum transition" or something when the atom get closer than a certain limit to a crystallographic symmetry element. The atom does not care, its position is just determined by the local force fields and if those force fields have two local minima close together, the atom will be disordered.

I'm sorry I don't see this discontinuity that you are referring to at
all (I think you have forgotten to include the symmetry copy), and I'm
certainly not claiming there is any "quantum transition".  Let's start
with a disordered (1/2 occupancy) atom off a 2-fold axis and see what
happens to the electron density as it approaches and finally sits on
the 2-fold.  Here are the electron densities (this would obviously
look at lot better graphed - my apologies!):

     1   6  10  6  1   *   1  6  10  6  1

Now move the atom closer in steps to the axis so it overlaps more and
more with its symmetry copy:

                           *

         1   6  10  6  2  6  10  6  1

           1   6  10  7 7  10  6  1

            1  6  11  12  11  6  1

               1  7  16  16  7  1

                2  12  20  12  2

                          *

On the final step the fully overlapped atom has twice the occupancy
(i.e. 1 instead of 1/2) as the original as evidenced by a peak height
of 20 units, compared with 10.  In which step did the discontinuity
occur?  Clearly we could make the steps as small as we like, and you
would see a smooth transition from 2 1/2 atoms to 1 whole one.


> The decision to switch from a model where the atom is added once with full occupancy to the fourier transform calculation, or whether the atom is added twice with half occupancy is an arbitrary decision, made by the programmer or the user of the program.

I completely agree, both ways of doing it work equally well and it's
all down to convention.  As I pointed out to Dale, the way I'm
describing does work in practice, as evidenced by the fact that
CRYSTALS which does it the way I describe, has been doing it this way
for the last 40 years.  So I can't accept that it can't work in
practice when plainly it does!

This issue here is purely one of divergence of agreed convention (CIF,
mmCIF & PDB) and practice.

Cheers

-- Ian

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager