"Rider" is a common descriptive term in South Wales indicating a thin -
poorly developed coal seam known to be associated with a workable /
winnable seam - such as the No2 Rhondda, and the No 2 Rhondda Rider
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: mining-history [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Ian Spensley
Sent: 14 September 2010 04:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: More gangue

I think that the journey is as important as arriving at the destination.
I  
doubt that we'll find where the name Gangue arrived at one place or 
another;  but the journey has been interesting. I was trying to think if
I have  
ever seen it used in Yorkshire, I'd forgotten White Gang Mine. There are
quite 
a  few clues to the migration of Derbyshire miners in Yorkshire, I'm
quite 
sure  that the Alsop's came from there; and they were at Cobscar and
Hurst 
in the  1605's. I suppose it would be interesting to know if 'Rider' has

migrated from  Yorkshire to anywhere else, or if any other name from
other 
places has  travelled.
 
Cawk in Yorkshire is barytes. That might have come up from  Derbyshire.
 
Anyway it's time to gan (gang) and put t'diner on.
 
 
In a message dated 14/09/2010 15:20:26 GMT Daylight Time,  
[log in to unmask] writes:

From the  OED, the first printed use in English is in 1809 by Gregor in 
vol. 
xcic p  196 of the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society. This

OED 
entry  adds nothing to our use/understanding of the word or its origins.

Mike  Shaw

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Brewis"  <[log in to unmask]>
To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010  8:05 AM
Subject: [mining-history] More gangue


I concede to Mike  Gill (pleading, as Doctor Johnson did in 1755 when 
challenged about the  definition of a word in his - the first ever - 
dictionary of the English  language, "ignorance, pure ignorance) that
the 
introduction of use of the  word "gangue" had nothing to do with German 
miners, though the question as  to whether it is Anglo-Saxon or Viking 
Danish 
comes to  mind.



And having never seen most of the things Trevor Dunkerley  writes about 
(although Deep Adit at Tywarnhaile copper mine, Porthtowan,  Cornwall, 
which 
we had to survey as mining students, is indeed a "coffin  adit"), I
concede 
ignorance of many aspects of Derbyshire lead  mining.



However, looking at my bookshelves, I remembered that I  have a copy of

"The 
Miners Dictionary" by William Hooson, my copy  being a "limited
facsimile 
edition prepared directly from the copy that  formed part of the 
Institution 
[of Mining and Metallurgy]'s historical  collection". This was reprinted
in 
1979 from an original published in  MDCCXLVII (which I take to be 1747).



The first page of this  says it is

"The MINERS DICTIONARY explaining not only the TERMS used by  MINERS,
but 
also containing the THEORY and PRACTICE of that most useful  ART of
MINEING 
[sic], more especially of LEAD MINERS.

How a  gentleman may know whether HE has MINES in his land, or not.

How he may  know the cheapest and best way to come at THEM.

The METHOD of carrying  THEM on, in order to make them Profitable Works.

Together with a large  Account of all necessary Materials that are 
required, 
conducive  thereto.

The WHOLE being of very great Use to all MINERS and GENTLEMEN,  who have

MINES in their own Lands, and to all such as are concern'd in  MINES.

Being OBSERVATIONS made by the AUTHOR, from more than FORTY  YEARS
Practice 
and Experience, at the MINES in the High and Low PEAK in  Derbyshire, 
Shropshire, South and North Wales, and the North of  England.

By WILLIAM HOOSON, a DERBYSHIRE Miner."



I note  that the word "gangue" does not appear in the book, so I guess
it 
was 
not  in common use in 1747.  [My 1996 copy of Chambers Dictionary
implies  
that it came into use in English in the 19th century].



In  his section on Veins, Hooson says they are of different kinds, and 
within  
the space occupied by a vein there is ".. the Mettle, or Ore of what
sort  
soever, together with its Soil that naturally attends it, be it more or

less; this Space is called by some the Chert of the Vein, and by reason
of  
the difference of Veins, they are distinguished into several sorts
thus:"

Then in two columns he lists



Hard, Soft, Quick,  Dead, Sparry



Caukey, Kevelly, Leppey, Old and  New



Adding "The Names of these several sorts of Veins do well  enough
explain 
themselves". [!!!]



Looking up Kevell, I see  it is discussed in half a page of text which,
for 
the moment I will  refrain from copying out. "Caukey" is not defined, 
whereas 
for Leppey he  says "Tis when Work is Soft, Kind, and Winable enough, 
without 
any  Hardship, as Boreing, Cuting, Blasting, or such like".



So, back  to "gangue". When did the word come into use???

Tony Brewis  

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