Hi Hugh,
You should be able to index a monument with as many evidence types as you feel are appropriate.
Paul Adams
Data Standards Supervisor
English Heritage
NMRC, Kemble Drive, Swindon. SN2 2GZ
t: 01793 414762
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-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh
Sent: 08 April 2010 11:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Friday Afternoon Question
I'm not sure that I understand one of the main principles of this
dialog; why can you not have more than one evidence term for a monument?
I would record a cemetery as being a Sub-Surface Deposit and a Structure
if it has standing grave markers.
Although the scope term for SSDs refers to excavated evidence and
geophysics etc, this is not really needed in a cemetery with standing
grave markers where we can be 100% certain that there are
deposits/burials/stratigraphy below the ground surface.
Questioning whether there are sub-surface deposits within a known
graveyard seems worryingly close to the Schrodinger debacle.
Also, Vernacular monuments can be (and often are) deliberately designed
by an architect, it just means the local trend or fashion. I presume
that by Vernacular you mean that the monument has not been deliberately
planned, but formed in more of an ad-hoc basis or built to a
pre-conceived idea with no "blue-print".
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist
Development Management
Regeneration Department
North East Lincolnshire Council
Origin Two, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Noel Boothroyd
Sent: 08 April 2010 10:48
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Re: Friday Afternoon Question
By vernacular I mean that meaningful structure within the cemetery is
derived from tradition and is implicit, whereas designed structure is
based on the conscious decisions of one individual and is explicit (I
was thinking of the difference between a vernacular building and an
architect designed building as an analogy for vernacular and designed
landscape) (and by modern I mean from the 18th century, that's what a
history degree does for you)
yours
Noel
Noel Boothroyd Archaeologist
Urban Design & Conservation City of Stoke-on-Trent
PO Box 630 Civic Centre Glebe Street Stoke-on-Trent ST4 1RF
t 01782 232597 f 01782 232171 e [log in to unmask]
stoke.gov.uk
Help save the environment; do not print this message unless you have to
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Evans
Sent: 08 April 2010 10:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Friday Afternoon Question
Surprisingly I, mainly, agree with Chris the logic of this thread is
peculiar. How the statement "most pre-modern cemteries are not designed
but vernacular" can be justified I don't understand even excluding
regency and Victorian Cemeteries and Churchyard reordering virtually
every cemetery from the Bronze Age on have major design elements, and I
am not even including pyramids!. What does vernacular (different to
polite) mean in this context?
David Evans
Historic Environment Record Officer
Planning and Environment
Planning, Transportation & Strategic Environment
PO Box 2081
The Council Offices, Castle Street
Thornbury
South Gloucestershire
BS35 9BP
Phone: 01454 863649
fax: 01454 865173
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster
Sent: 08 April 2010 09:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Friday Afternoon Question
Amen to that. This discussion is becoming reminiscent of the one earlier
this year about the definition of event and whether we should bother to
stick to it. There does seem to be a bit of creeping expediency over
logic and consistency going on. This could lead to the sort of mess that
we were in and needed to develop the EMA model to sort out...
Chris Webster
Somerset Historic Environment Record
Taunton Castle
Taunton
TA1 4AA
01823 255080
Visit the online HER at www.somerset.gov.uk/her
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Noel Boothroyd
Sent: 08 April 2010 09:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Friday Afternoon Question
I'd like to clarify why I think 'designed landscape' and 'interment' are
not suitable as evidence terms.
1. I think most pre-modern cemteries are not designed but vernacular but
more fundamentally
2. you are trying to use what should be monument type terms as evidence
because, I assume, you want to say the evidence for this monument is its
physical presence in the world today. But monument terms are
interpretations of the evidence (that's what the whole
monument/event/source model is about) so you have to say what the type
of evidence is not just say that a designed landscape is evidence for a
designed landscape. An example would be a record of a church with
graveyard and lychgate. The evidence for the church would not be
'church' but 'extant building' and the evidence for the lychgate would
be 'extant structure' (or 'extant building' if it has a roof), so the
evidence term for the cemetery should be 'extant landscape unit'. On the
other hand a Romano-British site may have a villa evidenced by a
sub-surface deposit and a villa estate which some might argue is a
designed landscape, but the evidence for this would be cropmarks,
earthworks, geophysics results, which would be used to create an
interpretation as a designed landscape.
So please don't confuse interpretation (designed landscape or vernacular
landscape or interment/inhumation/burial) with evidence (extant
landscape unit or sub surface deposit)(I wish I could think of something
more elegant than 'landscape unit')
yours
Noel
Noel Boothroyd Archaeologist
Urban Design & Conservation City of Stoke-on-Trent
PO Box 630 Civic Centre Glebe Street Stoke-on-Trent ST4 1RF
t 01782 232597 f 01782 232171 e [log in to unmask]
stoke.gov.uk
Help save the environment; do not print this message unless you have to
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Neil Guiden
Sent: 07 April 2010 16:34
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Friday Afternoon Question
Before i go, i just want to say these terms (and names) are pretty far
from 'set in stone' so these suggestions and points are all totally
valid and that i am taking your viewpoints seriously. These terms are
for everyone so im keen to get a lot of feedback and opinions before we
actually create more thesaurus terms.
Regards
Neil
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