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MEDIEVAL-RELIGION  January 2010

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Subject:

Re: Resurrection Bodies?

From:

Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:30:11 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

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text/plain (723 lines)

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]>

> Christopher,
> Your examples from Saint-Denis are all Renaissance transformations of 
the late medieval transi tomb, 

well, as a confirmed middelvilist, i don't really believe in that 
"Renaissance" nonsense, as such.

>which usually featured the "social" body above and an increasingly macabre
image of the dead cadaver below.  

yes, and that "social" body is, if i recall rightly, more or less in his/her
prime (perhaps a rather aging 33 or so, difficult to tell).

> These began to develop in the late 14th century, and at about the same 
time, one also gets occasional "family" effigies, on which the kids are 
definitely not depicted as 33-year-olds.  An excellent study of this is 
Erwin Panofsky's book, Tomb Sculpture.

i've been meaning to read that, for several decades now.

c 





> Christopher Crockett wrote:
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > From: Jon Cannon <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> >   
> >> .. so are medieval effigies all of more-or-less 33-year olds? And other
> >>     
> > images maybe, too (Generic saints?) 
> >
> >   
> >> Later on, in the C15, this is emphatically not the case: the newfangled
idea
> >>     
> > of the portrait puts paid to that. 
> >
> > cf. the later royal tombs at St. Denis, which are quite starkly
"realistic"
> > [i.e., naturalistic]
> >
> > http://chrisagde.free.fr/val/h2arts.php3?page=5
> >
> > http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8185772
> >
> > or this example of the "funéraire macabre du XVIè: (« Transi » de
René de
> > Châlons de Bar le Duc, 1544)"
> >
> >
http://www.encyclopedie.bseditions.fr/image/article/vignette/FRARENSCURICH0001.jpg
> >
> >   
> >> But what of the C13 and C14? 
> >>     
> >
> > i've never thought of it before, but it seems like French effigies i've
seen
> > from the 12th-13th cc. are all "idealized" "portraits" of, yes, the
subject in
> > the Prime of his or her life.
> >
> > the macabre stuff from the end of the m.a. is just a kind of fluke, i
> > suppose.
> >
> > c
> >
> >   
> >>> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 00:42:58 +0000
> >>> From: [log in to unmask]
> >>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>
> >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
> >>>
> >>> An example of this can be found in Aquinas' exposition of the
> >>> Apostles' Creed when he enumerates the qualities of resurrected
> >>> bodies:
> >>>
> >>> "Quarta conditio est quantum ad aetatem, quia omnes resurgent in
> >>> aetate perfecta, idest triginta trium vel duorum annorum. Cuius ratio
> >>> est, quia qui nondum pervenerunt ad hoc, non habent aetatem perfectam,
> >>> et senes hanc iam amiserunt: et ideo iuvenibus et pueris addetur quod
> >>> deest, senibus vero restituetur. Ephes. IV, 13: donec occurramus omnes
> >>> in (...) virum perfectum, in mensuram aetatis plenitudinis Christi."
> >>>
> >>> http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/csv.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2010/1/4 Ms B M Cook <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>       
> >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>         
> > culture
> >   
> >>>> This may be a bit woolly and OT, but was it not / is it not / believed
> >>>>         
> > in some quarters that at the Resurrection we shall ALL be 33 years old,
no
> > matter what our biological age at death, because that is the age of Christ
at
> > his death & resurrection ?
> >   
> >>>> (I certainly LIKE the idea! wherever it comes from.)
> >>>>
> >>>> To put this into a medieval context, does not the author of the
mystical
> >>>>         
> > poem "Pearl" encounter his dead daughter in a dream / vision and, although
she
> > had died as a young child, she is presented / presents herself / to him as
an
> > adult woman wearing a crown and tells him that all are kings and queens in
the
> > Kingdom of Heaven. ??
> >   
> >>>> I may have a copy of "Pearl" (the girl's name was probably Margaret)
and
> >>>>         
> > tomorrow I will try to look this one up if someone else hasn't beaten me
to it
> > ....
> >   
> >>>> BMC
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: Jon Cannon
> >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 10:31 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>         
> > culture I'm not sure if this is relevant to your endeavours (or even a
red
> > herring) but I've sometimes seen it suggested that medieval tomb effigies,
in
> > which the personage is invariably (apart of course from transi tombs) a
> > youngish and idealised 'type' of knight/king/whatever, are partly an
evocation
> > condition expected of their body at the General Resurrection.
> >   
> >>>> I'd suggest a ref for this, but last time I did that my recollection
of
> >>>>         
> > it was so wincingly volte-face to the reality that I barely dare to say
more
> > now....
> >   
> >>>> J
> >>>>
> >>>>         
> >>>>> Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 11:56:14 -0600
> >>>>> From: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >   
> >>>>> Thanks Marjorie and Claire for your comments. I intend to devote some
> >>>>>           
> > time this winter and spring to the theme of the resurrection in medieval
art,
> > so I will be back with some further insights as they come to me. It is
> > surprising that there is not a lot of research being done on this theme,
> > unless I am totally in the dark in terms of research that is going on
now.
> > Steve
> >   
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> >>>>>           
> > culture [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Claire Renkin
> > [[log in to unmask]]
> >   
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:38 PM
> >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >   
> >>>>> Dear Marjorie and Steve,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From the evidence of your photo, Marjorie it looks like the fresco
> >>>>>           
> > represents the iconographic theme known as the Man of Sorrows . The
> > representation of Christ is not historical, because as you noted he
appears
> > upright in the tomb. It is a devotional theme and suggests in the words
of
> > Henk van Os a "comprehensive image of Christ's suffering." Some images of
the
> > Man of Sorrows also hint at the Resurrection by including such details as
> > Christ gesturing to the wound in his side, or more directly showing
Christ
> > gazing to the viewer.
> >   
> >>>>> Again based on the photo, the date of the fresco looks to me like
late
> >>>>>           
> > 14thc.
> >   
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Claire Renkin
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: Marjorie Greene<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>> To:
> >>>>>           
> > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >   
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:53 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >   
> >>>>> Thanks for the enlightenment, Steve. My first impression was
> >>>>>           
> > "Resurrection," but I must have caught the habit of not trusting first
> > impressions from my students.
> >   
> >>>>> I'm afraid I have no idea of the date of this work. Looking at it
> >>>>>           
> > while Roman traffic whizzes by and with the sight of the Wedding Cake out
of
> > the corner of my eye is surreal. I've seen it for years but absolutely no
> > progress on the scavi is obvious. Same situation year after year. I'd like
to
> > jump into the excavation area... Eventually it will probably be superb to
> > visit.
> >   
> >>>>> MG
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marjorie Greene
> >>>>> http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- On Thu, 12/31/09, McMichael, Steven J. <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>           
> > wrote:
> >   
> >>>>> From: McMichael, Steven J. <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>> Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 8:28 PM
> >>>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >   
> >>>>> Dear Majorie et al,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I just added the message to the site: Although Christ appears dead,
he
> >>>>>           
> > is ascending from the tomb and the fact that the lamb carries the banner
of
> > victory, this has to be the resurrection.
> >   
> >>>>> Do you know the date of this fresco?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steve
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >
[[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>]
> > On Behalf Of Marjorie Greene
> >
[[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>]
> >   
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 12:19 AM
> >>>>> To:
> >>>>>           
> >
[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> >   
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >   
> >>>>> Steven et al,
> >>>>> I just added an album to the medrelart site: Ara Coeli in the left
> >>>>>           
> > column top album and set as the album cover a picture of the Resurrection
that
> > is found in the scavi near Ara Coeli church and very close to the
Vittorio
> > Emanuele monument. The picture in question is the last in the album. The
other
> > photos are of the church, including a momument/tomb/something of Saint
> > Helena.
> >   
> >>>>> MG
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marjorie Greene
> >>>>> http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- On Wed, 12/30/09, McMichael, Steven J.
> >>>>>           
> >
<[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
> > wrote:
> >   
> >>>>> From: McMichael, Steven J.
> >>>>>           
> >
<[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
> >   
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>>>> To:
> >>>>>           
> >
[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> >   
> >>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 5:40 PM
> >>>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >   
> >>>>> Thank you, Jim, for the reference to this work of art. I am looking
at
> >>>>>           
> > the portrayal of resurrection in many different places, especially in
medieval
> > theological tracts, sermons and art. I started my research with the
assumption
> > that medieval art was almost totally focused on the passion and death of
> > Jesus. I have seen so far that this is far from the truth. Certainly the
> > passion and death of Jesus is the central focus, but I have been surprised
at
> > how much medieval art does focus on the resurrection of Christ.
> >   
> >>>>> Thanks again,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steve
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >
[[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>]
> > On Behalf Of Dr Jim Bugslag
> >
[[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>]
> >   
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 9:29 AM
> >>>>> To:
> >>>>>           
> >
[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> >   
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>>           
> > culture
> >   
> >>>>> Dear Steve,
> >>>>> This is not quite what you asked for, but this reminded me of
> >>>>>           
> > Matthias
> >   
> >>>>> Grunewald's Isenheim Altarpiece which, when closed, shows a famously
> >>>>> gruesome dead Christ on the Cross, but when opened, a resurrected
> >>>>>           
> > Christ
> >   
> >>>>> that might, at least approximately, be considered to have the
> >>>>>           
> > qualities
> >   
> >>>>> you list.
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> Jim
> >>>>>
> >>>>> McMichael, Steven J. wrote:
> >>>>>           
> >>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>>>>>             
> > culture
> >   
> >>>>>> I am working on the death scene of Francis of Assisi in which his
> >>>>>>             
> > dead body miraculously is transformed into the "resurrection body", i.e.,
it
> > takes on the four endowments: impassibility (impassibilitas), clarity
> > (claritas), agility (agilitas), and subtlety or elusiveness (subtilitas).
Are
> > there other saints in the middle ages in which the hagiographer makes such
a
> > claim about the body of the saint after his/her death?
> >   
> >>>>>> Thanks in advance of any replies,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steven J. McMichael, OFM Conv.
> >>>>>> Theology Department
> >>>>>> University of Saint Thomas
> >>>>>> Saint Paul, MN USA
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>             
> > **********************************************************************
> >   
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> >>>>>>             
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