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Subject:

Re: Narrower Terms: Context

From:

"CARLISLE, Philip" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Issues related to Historic Environment Records <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:21:40 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (553 lines)

Hi Sylvina,
The ones owned and administered by EH are supplied to exegesis. We don't own or administer the RCAHMS thesaurus.

Phil

Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
English Heritage
National Monuments Record Centre
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2GZ
+44 (0)1793 414824

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/


The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent.

Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.

P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to


-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sylvina Tilbury
Sent: 14 January 2010 13:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

Hi again Phil

I suppose I'm rather hoping that if the relevant technical people could
get together and establish exactly how the RCAHMS thesaurus would need
to be presented, then it would be relatively straightforward to add it
into the group as part of the csv files we get, to pick terms from as
and when needed. Am I correct that the csv files are supplied to
Exegesis by EH?

Sylvina

-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip
Sent: 14 January 2010 13:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

Hi Sylvina et al,
I can't comment for RCAHMS but I think they'll be replying to this list
separately about a HBSMR version very shortly.

What I can say is that the EH thesaurus and the RCAHMS thesaurus
complement each other and that Scottish-specific terminology sits more
logically in the RCAHMS thesaurus. The difference between English and
Scottish terminology may be slight but it was deemed of sufficient
importance to initiate the Scottish Thesaurus.

The structure, and vast majority of the terms, in the RCAHMS version are
based on the EH one and as such it should be simple enough for HBSMR to
import it. But that's an issue for RCAHMS and exeGesIS to discuss.

Phil

Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
English Heritage
National Monuments Record Centre
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2GZ
+44 (0)1793 414824

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/


The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be
privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received
the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your
system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else
or copied without the sender's consent.

Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author
and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English
Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.

P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to


-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sylvina Tilbury
Sent: 14 January 2010 12:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

Phil

The problem is that at the moment the only way to use this in HBSMR is
to create new candidate terms for everything. That's quite a duplication
of effort across all the Scottish users. I will always go to the RCAHMS
thesaurus for a term first when I don't find a suitable one in the EH
thesaurus, but it's not a great situation really. We have hundreds of
candidate terms which we could submit to you, but it really would be
better if a neater solution could be found.

Sylvina


-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip
Sent: 14 January 2010 12:24
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

Hi Val,
Try the RCHAMS version. This is a more Scottish version

http://lmid1a.rcahms.gov.uk/rcahms/apps/f?p=210:1:3196872292988002

Phil

Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
English Heritage
National Monuments Record Centre
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2GZ
+44 (0)1793 414824

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/


The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be
privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received
the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your
system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else
or copied without the sender's consent.

Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author
and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English
Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.

P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to


-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Val Turner
Sent: 14 January 2010 12:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

But a lot of basic Scottish terms are not there at all - and the couple
that are have explanations that we don't agree with and therefore still
use our own "candidate" terms.
Are there any plans to deal with this?
I remember RCAHMS and ARIA devising a thesaurus about 20 years ago (well
before good digital links) but I can't remember what came of it - and
certainly it's not included within the HBSMR thesaurus.
Maybe we who are (honorary) Scots should explore this?

Val


Val Turner
Shetland Archaeologist
Shetland Amenity Trust, Garthspool,
Lerwick, Shetland, ZE1 0NY
Tel: (01595) 694688

The Shetland Amenity Trust is a registered
Scottish charity, No: SC017505




-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Godden, Alex
Sent: 14 January 2010 10:59
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

I've always liked that there's scarabs and shabtis in the finds
thesaurus. We don't get much Egyptian funerary archaeology in Hampshire
tbh, so have never had a cause to use them. Maybe one day...

:-)

Cheers!

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Blake, Suzy (DSD)
Sent: 14 January 2010 10:55
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

Solar is there as a component type!

-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kirkham, Andy (DSD)
Sent: 14 January 2010 10:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

Hi Chris
Sounds like you've given up cairning. Try inside out and upside down
just to be on the the sife sade.
Cheers - Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
Sent: 14 January 2010 10:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

Hi Phil,

Maybe we could more beyond the cairns (in Leicester there is very little
cultivated land and what there is no upland, so there are no cairns of
any description) and look at wider difficulties that affect the
thesaurus.

All too many of the terms reflect the interest of those who have
submitted terms (even if those interests were merely transient). I've
just come across some evidence that may indicate the location for the
solar wing (great chamber, or whatever you care to call it) at Leicester
Castle (We know where the Great Hall was, as the building still
survives, having served as the Assizes and later the Crown Courts until
the 1980s) what is does not survive is the wing that the Dukes of
Lancaster used as their private residence.  I just searched the
thesaurus from top to bottom (and then bottom to top just to be sure)
for a suitable term. Take it from me there are none! And yet the term
'MINKA', which refers to something that is specifically Japanese, is
there. How can this be?

Chris

>>> "CARLISLE, Philip" <[log in to unmask]>
13/01/2010 15:33 >>>
Hi Sylvina,
Yes sorry, re-reading it, does look as if we're just letting you know
rather than getting involved.

With regards to CAIRN we think the sensible option is to remove it as a
broader term of BURIAL CAIRN and CLEARANCE CAIRN and move it to MONUMENT
<BY FORM>.

BURIAL CAIRN would then float under FUNERARY SITE and CAIRN (in monument
<by form>) and similarly CLEARANCE CAIRN would just float under AG and
SUB.

So CAIRN may have been solved (let us know if you think this solution
works/doesn't work etc) but we still have to look at homographing the
other terms.

Any suggestions anyone?

Phil


Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
English Heritage
National Monuments Record Centre
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2GZ
+44 (0)1793 414824

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/


The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be
privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received
the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your
system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else
or copied without the sender's consent.

Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author
and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English
Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.

P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sylvina Tilbury
Sent: 13 January 2010 15:20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context

Hello Phil

To be fair, your email wasn't really presented as a possible option but
as the solution, but I'm glad that you're open to discussion on this
one. As an HBSMR user, I for one am all too aware of the background to
this as the Cairn problem has been a real bugbear of mine.

Looking at the Monument <By Form> class, it seems to have been used in a
similar way before so I wouldn't have any objection to that solution.
Surely though you would not then need to break it down into Cairn
(Agricultural) and Cairn (Ritual) etc. , so your broad term could just
be Cairn? There are several other types of cairn in the thesaurus
- presumably these would all be assigned as narrow terms under the
proposed broad term under Monument <By Form>?

Sylvina

Sylvina Tilbury | HER Officer | Planning & Development Service |
Highland Council

Glenurquhart Road, Inverness, IV3 5NX | T: 01463 702503 | F: 01463
702298

Highland HER: http://her.highland.gov.uk<http://her.highland.gov.uk/>
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip
Sent: 13 January 2010 14:55
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Narrower Terms: Context

Dear all,
I though it might be useful to provide some context behind the proposed
changes to the terms I posted this morning.

The Data Standards Unit is undertaking this work at the behest of a
large proportion of the HER community. Crispin Flower on behalf of the
HBMSMR users group sent me the following back in September.


Hi Phil
The problem with the thesaurus narrow terms keeps cropping up, with
HBSMR users getting unexpected/incorrect results to searches. For
example, we have recently had Staffordshire having trouble searching for
BRIDGE and its narrow terms, because the various instances of BRIDGE
have different narrow terms. They are using the latest v10 thesaurus
release.
When we last discussed this in April 2008, we provided a list of the
worst offending terms (see below), and you were going to see if and when
fixing this could be scheduled into the DSU work programme - has there
been any progress here?
If this is not going to happen within a useful timescale, we'll together
need to look into other ways of resolving this, i.e. to make changes in
HBSMR to how the searching works (which could be resourced either by the
users' "Development Reserve" or by EH).

Best wishes
Crispin

Unlike the EH software which returns all instances of a term and its
narrow terms (so a search on CAIRN would also bring back CLEARANCE CAIRN
as well as BURIAL CAIRN) the exeGesIS software searches on the instance
(ie. position in the hierarchy) and its narrower terms which may differ,
thus returning "unexpected/incorrect" results.

To solve this problem Crispin supplied us with a copy of a spreadsheet
with the 'problematic' terms in and for the most part these were easy
enough to fix as there was no problem with the hierarchical positions.
Only the 12 terms which I sent earlier need further work.

What the solutions for those terms are is for us as a community to
decide. All we (DSU) are trying to do is to provide a quick fix for a
large proportion of the community.

What I sent out this morning was an EXAMPLE of one approach and, as I
replied to Andrew Nicholson off list, we may end up having a catch all
term like CAIRN (MONUMENT) under MONUMENT <BY FORM> to solve the
problems where the interpretation is uncertain (and no, Chris building
uncertainty into the thesaurus is not an option!).

So by all means discuss the problem terms but don't shoot the messenger.


Phil



Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
English Heritage
National Monuments Record Centre
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2GZ
+44 (0)1793 414824

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/


The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be
privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received
the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your
system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else
or copied without the sender's consent.

Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author
and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English
Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.

P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to


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nor does this email form part of any contract unless so stated.
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This e-mail (including any attachments) is only for the person or
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you must let me know immediately and then delete this e-mail.  If you
use this e-mail without permission, or if you allow anyone else to see,
copy or distribute the e-mail, or if you do, or don't do something
because you have read this e-mail, you may be breaking the law.

Liability cannot be accepted for any loss or damage arising from this
e-mail (or any attachments) or from incompatible scripts or any virus
transmitted.

E-mails and attachments sent to or received from staff and elected
Members may be monitored and read and the right is reserved to reject or
return or delete any which are considered to be inappropriate or
unsuitable.

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waste disposal costs and harm the environment.

________________________________________________________________________
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Concerned about how climate change may affect older properties? What
about saving energy?
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This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
personal views which are not the
views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have
received it in error, please delete it
from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or
disclose the information in
any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English
Heritage may become publicly available.

______________________________________________
This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
http://www.netintelligence.com/email



Unless related to the business of The Highland Council, the views or
opinions expressed within this email are those of the sender and do not
necessarily reflect those of The Highland Council, or associated bodies,
nor does this email form part of any contract unless so stated.

________________________________________________________________________
_________

Concerned about how climate change may affect older properties? What
about saving energy?
Visit our new website www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk today.

This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
personal views which are not the
views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have
received it in error, please delete it
from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or
disclose the information in
any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English
Heritage may become publicly available.

______________________________________________
This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
http://www.netintelligence.com/email



Unless related to the business of The Highland Council, the views or opinions expressed within this email are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect those of The Highland Council, or associated bodies, nor does this email form part of any contract unless so stated.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Concerned about how climate change may affect older properties? What about saving energy? 
Visit our new website www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk today. 

This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the 
views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it
from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in 
any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available.

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