One of the things you left out below, Rupert, is that a large  
incentive behind all kinds of avant poetry is the desire to escape,  
transcend or play with our notions of identity, whereas the general  
tendency in black and asian writing has been from the other direction,  
the search to define and find a more stable identity. The reasons for  
these different approaches are pretty obvious. A similar thing  
happened with regard to the main thrust of British feminist writing  
where the desire to identify and explore female identity was much  
stronger than the desire to jump out of it.  These rifts appeared  
first back in the late 60's and early 70's but, as i've said before,  
didn't really gain strength until the 80's, by which time the  
differences between 'expansive' poetry (what a lot of avant stuff  
sometimes got called then) and mainstream cliche were clear and just  
about unbridgeable. The fact that so much 'identity' driven poetry  
drove itself (or was driven by the patronizing establishment) into  
cliche was a tragedy. The ways in which identity poetics were readily  
available to be taken-in by the mainstream - and became a huge and  
healthy part of that mainstream - had their negative image in the ways  
in which the identity-fleeing poetry of the avant garde was able to be  
dismissed, and even accused of being anti-people etc in the process.

I have to admit that years ago when I was thrown into this world of  
polemics and political dirty tricks, with regard to something as  
seemingly harmless as poetry, it was quite a shock. What was probably  
more shocking though was the way people could be taken-in and believe  
all the nonsense. There are elements of such beliefs and perceptions  
in some of your comments below - but engagement with them could send  
us back into the murky waters of a recent thread that we have only  
just extricated ourselves from.

The topic of the lack of black and Asian poets engaging with the Brit  
avant garde has for a long time been very difficult to engage with.  
I've been accused of being racist (and sexist with regard to feminist  
poetry) by snooty twits for even mentioning the subject. I should  
think it partly accounts for the reticence shown in responding to  
David's original question. But have things changed? Marriott was long  
used as the exception that proved the rule but even now, as you might  
have noticed, the list of names is very small (not small in talent  
though - Vahni is quite incredible).

Cheers

Tim A

On 25 Oct 2009, at 22:37, rupert mallin wrote:

> David
>
> Good. You've opened up so much with this question. There are  
> literally no Black or Asian Poets involved in what you perceive here  
> as the UK's avant garde. Some may argue that this is because the  
> Black tradition is rooted in an oral spoken tradition of word,  
> whereas the UK avantgarde tradition is visual and aural (page-text,  
> sound). Part of that is partly right I'm sure but there's so much  
> more.
>
> My view is that UK poetry is a generation in retreat. The poetry we  
> don't talk about here is Performance - John Hegley and TV/Radio  
> presenter like Ian MacMillan and high profile music festivals and  
> the like, where we find the Latitude Festival poetry tent packs in  
> hundreds to hear spoken word poetry. Yet, even here, poetry has  
> actually become white again. Brilliant talents like Ali Gadema are  
> being lost in a weird synthesis between the Academic and Business.  
> Let me explain:-
>
> Avant garde UK poetry had to find a place to survive in the  
> University. Meanwhile, from ages back, the Arts Council has paid lip  
> service to Performance Poetry (the Black influence) - which has  
> grown far more conservative via 'Literature Live.' That is, there is  
> an excellence criteria applied - err, white University types - YOU  
> ARE CHOSEN!
>
> There is a third element which has denied Black & Asian poets  
> involvement or an audience - the avant garde in particular - and  
> this is the increased use of the Internet as a publishing house -  
> from text to video. Look at University Vacancies and the ACGB  
> Opportunities to find high paid chaps/lasses to make screen pages  
> and tperformances - while Uni can archive all!
>
> And this brings me to my final concern as to why Black & Asian poets  
> are not on this List or involved in avant garde poetry: perceptions  
> of literacy versus theoretical writings/discussions.  Yet, really  
> what has happened is that British Society has become incredibly more  
> divided in the last ten years. Poets are far less likely in the  
> avant garde to take on Society through politics - rather their  
> Universities act as Jonah's Whale. Poets protected.
>
> You can see the recent history of this List to find my biggest  
> concern - the march against subject matter and action. As the UK  
> entered into Imperial on Iraq this List was buzzing with response. I  
> introduced a young poet Salman Shaheen then to the List and he  
> couldn't cope with the continuous theory drawn from a theory.
>
> Brilliantly, Trevor Joyce's 'Offsets' was all action. Since, phew,  
> what are poets writing about? Themselves! Black, Asian & working  
> class people not welcome then?
>
> I am a Marxist - and one who supports our posties and think the  
> avant garde opposes the working class in the UK because it's so. so  
> concerned with itself, what other purpose? Why should Black, Asian  
> and Working Class poets get involved?
>
> Rupert
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lace" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: are there any black or asian avantgarde poets in uk
>
>
> surely someone must have an opinion on this. it's a genuine question.
>
>
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 21:17:15 +0100, David Lace <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> i'm new to this forum, and also to avantgarde poetry. it struck me
> that
>> from what i've read there are no black or asian or other ethnic poets
>> mentioned in uk avantgarde poetry. don't get me wrong i'm not saying
>> that racism is the cause--i'm just curious. in america there are  
>> quite a
>> few poets of different ethnic backgrounds. maybe, there are poets  
>> like
>> this in the uk and i'm just so new i don't know about it.